I have become wrong way corrigan
I have become wrong way corrigan
Yhep I unwhittingly have undone my best efforts to improve my cooling of the intake DCAI piping. If you recall that I did an insulation of my intake and temperature testing with probes to verify the gains.
It all worked and I see a 5 - 10 degree rise on the uninsulated pipe versus the insulated one. I was feeling good about the project and then realized something is really messed up. I have undesirably caused a great deal of extra heating without realizing it!!!!! POOP.
It you have followed my posts, the manifold insulation was to keep out extra engine heat on my DCAI design with the DUAL THROTTLE BODIES. THe theory of the throttle bodies TB is that two of them open faster than one by 100%, thus the opening is double the typical TB opening rate = better throttle response off corners for driving and autocrossing. After years of playing with it assistance from ROB, I just got them working without HICCKUPS or dead spots. THIS IS BEYOND THE SPRINT BOOSTER's IMPROVEMENTS, RED OR GREEN LIGHT!
OK old info at this point, the TB's Work and the insulation helps a good deal, maybe 10 degrees on my car and sure to be a bigger gain on your cars.
WHY, well in testing I only compared one inlet with the other to see the difference or gain insulation makes. I was fixated on the improvement and MISSED THE BIGGER ISSUE.
Ill not post all the data I gathered but in a nut shell the insulation is a good thing, period. What I just became aware of is that the inlet was about 140+ going into the supercharger. Thats crazy, the air temp was about 90 - 94 F and the inlet to the SC was 50 or more degrees higher. I was so focused on the insulation difference ( gain) that I overlooked the overall picture.
More testing and moving the probes to the inside of the DCAI pipes, I had a 40 degree rise from the front grill to the down wind side of my TB. The TB was heating the air something large. My TBs are located just inside the front radiator support where the radiator fan is blowing on it. Yikes, in one foot -yes 12 inches (at crusing speeds of 50 - 60 steady state driving) my air was being heated from 92F to about 140F.
No wonder the power was not as good as I wanted, my dual TB design works but its configuration is flawed as the TB's are running way over ambient temps due to the heating by the radiator;s fan.................... GOtta change that to move on.
Anyway, one step forward and much more to be had if I can get this layout improved.
This is a status report, since my air is so heated the insulation showed modest gains, your car should see better gains as the DCAI or CAI you have has cooler air and the insulation has a greater [cooler] differential, thus bigger gains than I have shown. ( Your 90 while Iam 140 in the same day temps).
FYI here what else I found in MY car underhood temps at a stop light rise to 160 - 170 even with my hood cooling. When driving for several minutes steady, that drops down to an under hood temp of about 120, MEASURED NEAR THE DRIVER HEADLIGHT HOUSING NEXT TO THE LARGE A/C HOSE.
oNE MORE TIME: the inlet air temps I am measuring are at the inlet to the SC. IAT is after the SC and intercooler IC. my IAT as Iam set up, is with ambient air temp running 90F in and about 105 at the IAT sensor. THis means that my supercooler is really carrying off much more heat than necessary. When I get the intake under control, the IAT should drop lower while cruising and similar gains to be had at WOT.
I did not muck this posting with all up with numbers but took a mess of readings while driving about 100 miles this weekend for tests. Mostly had an outdoor air sensor on grill, one in the DCAI pipe at the back of my TB and another at the SC inlet. Been in the right lane following trucks with the speed control on at 55 - 60 to keep stable conditions.
Its been interesting and challenging, enjoy. W
DY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Corrigan
.
It all worked and I see a 5 - 10 degree rise on the uninsulated pipe versus the insulated one. I was feeling good about the project and then realized something is really messed up. I have undesirably caused a great deal of extra heating without realizing it!!!!! POOP.
It you have followed my posts, the manifold insulation was to keep out extra engine heat on my DCAI design with the DUAL THROTTLE BODIES. THe theory of the throttle bodies TB is that two of them open faster than one by 100%, thus the opening is double the typical TB opening rate = better throttle response off corners for driving and autocrossing. After years of playing with it assistance from ROB, I just got them working without HICCKUPS or dead spots. THIS IS BEYOND THE SPRINT BOOSTER's IMPROVEMENTS, RED OR GREEN LIGHT!
OK old info at this point, the TB's Work and the insulation helps a good deal, maybe 10 degrees on my car and sure to be a bigger gain on your cars.
WHY, well in testing I only compared one inlet with the other to see the difference or gain insulation makes. I was fixated on the improvement and MISSED THE BIGGER ISSUE.
Ill not post all the data I gathered but in a nut shell the insulation is a good thing, period. What I just became aware of is that the inlet was about 140+ going into the supercharger. Thats crazy, the air temp was about 90 - 94 F and the inlet to the SC was 50 or more degrees higher. I was so focused on the insulation difference ( gain) that I overlooked the overall picture.
More testing and moving the probes to the inside of the DCAI pipes, I had a 40 degree rise from the front grill to the down wind side of my TB. The TB was heating the air something large. My TBs are located just inside the front radiator support where the radiator fan is blowing on it. Yikes, in one foot -yes 12 inches (at crusing speeds of 50 - 60 steady state driving) my air was being heated from 92F to about 140F.
No wonder the power was not as good as I wanted, my dual TB design works but its configuration is flawed as the TB's are running way over ambient temps due to the heating by the radiator;s fan.................... GOtta change that to move on.
Anyway, one step forward and much more to be had if I can get this layout improved.
This is a status report, since my air is so heated the insulation showed modest gains, your car should see better gains as the DCAI or CAI you have has cooler air and the insulation has a greater [cooler] differential, thus bigger gains than I have shown. ( Your 90 while Iam 140 in the same day temps).
FYI here what else I found in MY car underhood temps at a stop light rise to 160 - 170 even with my hood cooling. When driving for several minutes steady, that drops down to an under hood temp of about 120, MEASURED NEAR THE DRIVER HEADLIGHT HOUSING NEXT TO THE LARGE A/C HOSE.
oNE MORE TIME: the inlet air temps I am measuring are at the inlet to the SC. IAT is after the SC and intercooler IC. my IAT as Iam set up, is with ambient air temp running 90F in and about 105 at the IAT sensor. THis means that my supercooler is really carrying off much more heat than necessary. When I get the intake under control, the IAT should drop lower while cruising and similar gains to be had at WOT.
I did not muck this posting with all up with numbers but took a mess of readings while driving about 100 miles this weekend for tests. Mostly had an outdoor air sensor on grill, one in the DCAI pipe at the back of my TB and another at the SC inlet. Been in the right lane following trucks with the speed control on at 55 - 60 to keep stable conditions.
Its been interesting and challenging, enjoy. W
DYhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Corrigan
.
Last edited by waldig; 07-27-2015 at 03:46 PM.
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Re: I have become wrong way corrigan
Yhep I unwhittingly have undone my best efforts to improve my cooling of the intake DCAI piping. If you recall that I did an insulation of my intake and temperature testing with probes to verify the gains.
It all worked and I see a 5 - 10 degree rise on the uninsulated pipe versus the insulated one. I was feeling good about the project and then realized something is really messed up. I have undesirably caused a great deal of extra heating without realizing it!!!!! POOP.
It you have followed my posts, the manifold insulation was to keep out extra engine heat on my DCAI design with the DUAL THROTTLE BODIES. THe theory of the throttle bodies TB is that two of them open faster than one by 100%, thus the opening is double the typical TB opening rate = better throttle response off corners for driving and autocrossing. After years of playing with it assistance from ROB, I just got them working without HICCKUPS or dead spots. THIS IS BEYOND THE SPRINT BOOSTER's IMPROVEMENTS, RED OR GREEN LIGHT!
OK old info at this point, the TB's Work and the insulation helps a good deal, maybe 10 degrees on my car and sure to be a bigger gain on your cars.
WHY, well in testing I only compared one inlet with the other to see the difference or gain insulation makes. I was fixated on the improvement and MISSED THE BIGGER ISSUE.
Ill not post all the data I gathered but in a nut shell the insulation is a good thing, period. What I just became aware of is that the inlet was about 140+ going into the supercharger. Thats crazy, the air temp was about 90 - 94 F and the inlet to the SC was 50 or more degrees higher. I was so focused on the insulation difference ( gain) that I overlooked the overall picture.
More testing and moving the probes to the inside of the DCAI pipes, I had a 40 degree rise from the front grill to the down wind side of my TB. The TB was heating the air something large. My TBs are located just inside the front radiator support where the radiator fan is blowing on it. Yikes, in one foot -yes 12 inches (at crusing speeds of 50 - 60 steady state driving) my air was being heated from 92F to about 140F.
No wonder the power was not as good as I wanted, my dual TB design works but its configuration is flawed as the TB's are running way over ambient temps due to the heating by the radiator;s fan.................... GOtta change that to move on.
Anyway, one step forward and much more to be had if I can get this layout improved.
This is a status report, since my air is so heated the insulation showed modest gains, your car should see better gains as the DCAI or CAI you have has cooler air and the insulation has a greater [cooler] differential, thus bigger gains than I have shown. ( Your 90 while Iam 140 in the same day temps).
FYI here what else I found in MY car underhood temps at a stop light rise to 160 - 170 even with my hood cooling. When driving for several minutes steady, that drops down to an under hood temp of about 120, MEASURED NEAR THE DRIVER HEADLIGHT HOUSING NEXT TO THE LARGE A/C HOSE.
oNE MORE TIME: the inlet air temps I am measuring are at the inlet to the SC. IAT is after the SC and intercooler IC. my IAT as Iam set up, is with ambient air temp running 90F in and about 105 at the IAT sensor. THis means that my supercooler is really carrying off much more heat than necessary. When I get the intake under control, the IAT should drop lower while cruising and similar gains to be had at WOT.
I did not muck this posting with all up with numbers but took a mess of readings while driving about 100 miles this weekend for tests. Mostly had an outdoor air sensor on grill, one in the DCAI pipe at the back of my TB and another at the SC inlet. Been in the right lane following trucks with the speed control on at 55 - 60 to keep stable conditions.
Its been interesting and challenging, enjoy. WDY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Corrigan
.
It all worked and I see a 5 - 10 degree rise on the uninsulated pipe versus the insulated one. I was feeling good about the project and then realized something is really messed up. I have undesirably caused a great deal of extra heating without realizing it!!!!! POOP.
It you have followed my posts, the manifold insulation was to keep out extra engine heat on my DCAI design with the DUAL THROTTLE BODIES. THe theory of the throttle bodies TB is that two of them open faster than one by 100%, thus the opening is double the typical TB opening rate = better throttle response off corners for driving and autocrossing. After years of playing with it assistance from ROB, I just got them working without HICCKUPS or dead spots. THIS IS BEYOND THE SPRINT BOOSTER's IMPROVEMENTS, RED OR GREEN LIGHT!
OK old info at this point, the TB's Work and the insulation helps a good deal, maybe 10 degrees on my car and sure to be a bigger gain on your cars.
WHY, well in testing I only compared one inlet with the other to see the difference or gain insulation makes. I was fixated on the improvement and MISSED THE BIGGER ISSUE.
Ill not post all the data I gathered but in a nut shell the insulation is a good thing, period. What I just became aware of is that the inlet was about 140+ going into the supercharger. Thats crazy, the air temp was about 90 - 94 F and the inlet to the SC was 50 or more degrees higher. I was so focused on the insulation difference ( gain) that I overlooked the overall picture.
More testing and moving the probes to the inside of the DCAI pipes, I had a 40 degree rise from the front grill to the down wind side of my TB. The TB was heating the air something large. My TBs are located just inside the front radiator support where the radiator fan is blowing on it. Yikes, in one foot -yes 12 inches (at crusing speeds of 50 - 60 steady state driving) my air was being heated from 92F to about 140F.
No wonder the power was not as good as I wanted, my dual TB design works but its configuration is flawed as the TB's are running way over ambient temps due to the heating by the radiator;s fan.................... GOtta change that to move on.
Anyway, one step forward and much more to be had if I can get this layout improved.
This is a status report, since my air is so heated the insulation showed modest gains, your car should see better gains as the DCAI or CAI you have has cooler air and the insulation has a greater [cooler] differential, thus bigger gains than I have shown. ( Your 90 while Iam 140 in the same day temps).
FYI here what else I found in MY car underhood temps at a stop light rise to 160 - 170 even with my hood cooling. When driving for several minutes steady, that drops down to an under hood temp of about 120, MEASURED NEAR THE DRIVER HEADLIGHT HOUSING NEXT TO THE LARGE A/C HOSE.
oNE MORE TIME: the inlet air temps I am measuring are at the inlet to the SC. IAT is after the SC and intercooler IC. my IAT as Iam set up, is with ambient air temp running 90F in and about 105 at the IAT sensor. THis means that my supercooler is really carrying off much more heat than necessary. When I get the intake under control, the IAT should drop lower while cruising and similar gains to be had at WOT.
I did not muck this posting with all up with numbers but took a mess of readings while driving about 100 miles this weekend for tests. Mostly had an outdoor air sensor on grill, one in the DCAI pipe at the back of my TB and another at the SC inlet. Been in the right lane following trucks with the speed control on at 55 - 60 to keep stable conditions.
Its been interesting and challenging, enjoy. W
DYhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Corrigan
.
Re: I have become wrong way corrigan
Woody, u are very much more educated than i am but even at my level of knowledge i would say the simple fix is just not insulate them. I think everyone can agree that insulating anything under the hood is really a dud. Masters of the onvious would say all it does is prolong the cooling phase. I would say the -10* fan mod would be more beneficial but i also know that u have adjusted your oem thermostat. Our engines were designed with the TB at the most rear position of the engine bay at less temps than yours being up most front of the car. Obviously, throttle response and cooling is important to u (as all race guys) so my vote would be to just remove insulation. It all reaches temp regardless. 15 lbs of compressed air exceeds 250 degrees. And in sure y are pushing more than 15psi. Cudos to you for your enginuity but thats just my .02 (valued at .01) from a regular Joe.
Re: I have become wrong way corrigan
Hey Woody.... In your present Dual TB configuration, would it be better to go with a EC heat exchanger down lower; so you're not throwing all that heat coming off the supercooler at your TB's? Or maybe that's just trading heat from one place and adding it to another, with no good results?
Re: I have become wrong way corrigan
Mod. 2.0 has this working and it the rain stops Ill confirm the gains, yesterday it was looking really good, better than before.
The TBs were not insulated though I thought about that - wanted to go outside the box as it were, SEE THIS!
First cut was less than 10 degrees rise above ambient, front to the supercharger -if true wow!
Enjoy, ww
CrossfireForum.org - waldig's Album: cool dual intake design - Mark #2 - Picture
The TBs were not insulated though I thought about that - wanted to go outside the box as it were, SEE THIS!
First cut was less than 10 degrees rise above ambient, front to the supercharger -if true wow!
Enjoy, ww
CrossfireForum.org - waldig's Album: cool dual intake design - Mark #2 - Picture
Re: I have become wrong way corrigan
Mod. 2.0 has this working and it the rain stops Ill confirm the gains, yesterday it was looking really good, better than before.
The TBs were not insulated though I thought about that - wanted to go outside the box as it were, SEE THIS!
First cut was less than 10 degrees rise above ambient, front to the supercharger -if true wow!
Enjoy, ww
CrossfireForum.org - waldig's Album: cool dual intake design - Mark #2 - Picture
The TBs were not insulated though I thought about that - wanted to go outside the box as it were, SEE THIS!
First cut was less than 10 degrees rise above ambient, front to the supercharger -if true wow!
Enjoy, ww
CrossfireForum.org - waldig's Album: cool dual intake design - Mark #2 - Picture
hmmmm
Re: I have become wrong way corrigan
Been talking and conferring with Rob on this to see what is available in the way of gains, I have throttle response, now I want it all to work and play well together.
Air filters are not issue for testing, It may be that the TBs go back toward the sc, but the tests will show whats available. Cant wait for my lift to arrive so I can get back to work - moved and built new house and of course the new garage.
WW
CrossfireForum.org - waldig's Album: cool dual intake design - Mark #2 - Picture
Air filters are not issue for testing, It may be that the TBs go back toward the sc, but the tests will show whats available. Cant wait for my lift to arrive so I can get back to work - moved and built new house and of course the new garage.
WW
CrossfireForum.org - waldig's Album: cool dual intake design - Mark #2 - Picture
Re: I have become wrong way corrigan
We discussed that and he said it is 0.003" thick and I believe it to be a radiant heat coating and that it would be susceptible to heating by convection.
My mylar has shown that Iam getting between 4 to 10 degrees rise - total- from the front of the radiator ( ambient air temp) to the inlet to the supercharger ) which is a function of driving. Probably made over 40 trips to see the performance and heating in the last week and playing with the dash dac data logger. THat is a real nice piece of equipment that Rob sold me - way back when.
Enjoy Woody
My mylar has shown that Iam getting between 4 to 10 degrees rise - total- from the front of the radiator ( ambient air temp) to the inlet to the supercharger ) which is a function of driving. Probably made over 40 trips to see the performance and heating in the last week and playing with the dash dac data logger. THat is a real nice piece of equipment that Rob sold me - way back when.
Enjoy Woody
Last edited by waldig; 08-01-2015 at 06:11 PM.
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