EDIT 8 April 2014: see the bottom of this post for a summary

OP: The top on our 2005 Crossfire has worked well since we bought the car new in late 2004. We have kept the car in south Florida since new. Other significant maintenance has been limited to replacing the (crazed) headlaight assemblies and replacing the convertible top (a couple of years back).

Just recently, however, the convertible top operation has become sluggish and will not operate without manual assistance (both to the top and to the tonneau cover operation).

I have read a number of posts regarding problems with the top operation. I don't believe any of the sensors are a problem, since the top does go down or up completely (with a manual assist) and locks or unlocks normally with the automatic window lowering or raising also functioning as they should. I hope I am not risking damaging the system by providing manual assistance to the top's operation.

The car battery is 16 mos old and shows 14V with engine running and 13V with engine stopped. The car starts quickly and normally.

There is no evidence of rust or debris in or around the convertible top components.

I would most appreciate any advice on further diagnosis or possible solutions for this problem.

Edit added: from reading further in a related thread, it sounds like I may be looking for rebuilding the top operation hydraulic cylinders - what do you think?

EDIT AT COMPLETION OF REBUILD/REPAIR:
After consultation and advice from forum members and Klaus Witte of Top Hydraulics, I decided to have the hydraulic pump and all seven power top system cylinders rebuilt. Although I have not worked on cars much, I am reasonably handy with tools. The job is not complex, but it is a long one and requires planning, patience and perseverance. I am confident that this is a "doable" repair for any reasonably "handy" crossfire owner.

Until a step-by-step do-it-yourself guide becomes available, you will need to have access to the Crossfire Service Manual (available online via this forum) and consult this thread for tips and ideas along the way. Tools required are pretty straight forward but of course bolts etc. are metric and there are some torx screws as well. Spanners and a ratcheting socket wrench with short extension are handy, as is a variable speed electric drill. You will also need a rivet gun and some rivets (aluminum 1/8" dia 1/16" - 1/8" grip range and 5/32" dia 3/16" - 1/4" grip range). I had never worked with rivets before and had some uncertainty about that, but it turned out to be inexpensive and easy.

I received good advice and support from the forum and especially from Klaus Witte of Top Hydraulics. Top Hydraulics was kind enough to loan me a couple of replacements for the the two latch assemblies (they did not include the hydraulic cylinders) so that I could use the top manually while the cylinders were being rebuilt. Turn around time by Top Hydraulics for the rebuilds was very fast (same or next business day) with the majority of in-process time due to the US Postal service. I would estimate that you could accomplish this repair easily in less than a month, and likely in far less time, depending on your available time and prior DIY mechanic experience.

Lessons learned (there are other tips in the comments along with the step by step photos):
* The very small new o-rings (supplied by Top Hydraulics) that fit on the ends of the hydraulic lines when reinstalling are very delicate, I unknowingly damaged two of them on installation and it caused leaks that I had to go back and fix later.
* Be careful to disconnect the negative lead to the battery as specified in the Service Manual before you work on the top.
* It is important to make sure the hydraulic pump reservoir is properly filled when all is reinstalled. It is likely you will need to manually exercise the top to get the hydraulic fluid back into the system and then check the level again.
* Never get in a hurry and if something is not going right, step back for a while, get advice and only then reapproach.

Approximate cost of this project:

Top Hydraulics
Pump rebuid $465
Cylinders (7) rebuild $760

USPS Postage $ 55

Additional tools; hardware $ 25

TOTAL $1,305

This compares to my guestimate of what a dealer would charge at likely $8,000 to $10,000. I know for a fact the dealer here wants $4,310 just for the price of a new pump!

My wife is very happy (it's her car, but she lets me drive it lol)

 

g3air,
Tis sounds more like a low fluid, has this been checked?
the next step would be the hydro motor. Also I never raise or lower without the engine being started..
john

 

Thanks for that idea, John. I don't know where to check the fluid level. I think I saw a post on that, but I can't find it again. And if it is low, wouldn't that imply I have a leak?

I likewise have always operated the top only when the engine was running.

 

The pump/tank is in the rear drivers side fender well. ( it is a semi-clear plastic tank )
You see it at the point that the top has gone up, but the tonneau cover is still open.
CAREFUL, the hydraulics will release pressure after @15-20 minutes and the cover will drop on your head.

 

I located the hydraulic pump reservoir:



It looks like the level is just below the filling point, so maybe not that low.

There is evidence of seepage at the bases of the two hydraulic cylinders, but perhaps not a lot, especially since the reservoir looks like it is up to the fill point:




So, what's the likely culprit, bad hydraulic pump? Something else?

 

There are actually 7 hydraulic cylinders, 4 solenoid valves involved.
Best check ALL the cylinders for leakage.

 

Ok, I was hoping that was the problem. I wonder if there is a pressure point we can hook up to for a test. I will grab the manual tonight to check it out.
sorry I do not have an answer yet.
jo

 

I guess this thread has gone cold and I need to fall back on a visit to the dealer and lots of expense.

Given the satisfactory level of fluid in the reservoir, leakage (even though there is some seepage) is likely not the culprit. Checking other cylinders for seepage does not seem to be a promising diagnostic path.

My (admittedly novice) opinion for the most likely suspect is the hydraulic pump, since the faltering performance of the top-up or top-down operation seems irrespective of which phase the top is in or which hydraulic cylinders are being used.

Any further thoughts?

 

G3air,
I am still working on the problem for you. I down loaded the manual and have been trying to understand the entire operation of the top. I do not have a solution yet but unless you are in a hurry we (the group) will come up with something. I need to understand the operation for my own use also and am going to replace my top soon. this may give me insight to your problem while in the frame work.
john.

 

John, you (and the Crossfire Forum Group) are very kind to stay involved and I am not in a hurry. Thank you all for your help! I am able to lower and raise the top manually now (thanks to the forum) so there is no need for haste. I just have the feeling that the fix, when identified, will likely mean I have to enlist a competent mechanic's aid, and the only place I see that coming from is the dealer, since I don't have any easy way of identifying other local sources.

 

g3air, do not despair!

The fluid level in your pump p/n 5142638AA is high enough. You are down to two possibilities, and you can probably deal with this yourself:

1) An internal bypass in one of the two locking cylinders (Rear Bow Lock Cylinder 05142957AA or Tonneau Cover Latch Cylinder 05166559AA), or

2) The pump not being able to create enough flow under pressure.

It is much more likely that the pump is the culprit. The good news: Top Hydraulics offers a rebuild service for the pumps: Chrysler Crossfire Hydraulic Pump Rebuild/Upgrade

The pump should be producing about 2000 psi when turning in one direction, and some 1700 psi in the other direction. There is a pressure port on the pump, but checking that kind of pressure off a metric port is a pretty specialized task. I would suggest that you send us the pump and we check it out. There will only be a nominal testing fee if the pump is performing well and does not need a rebuild.

To remove the pump, you need to make enough room for access, disconnect the wiring harness, disconnect the hydraulic lines, and unbolt the pump from the chassis. Disconnecting the hydraulic lines requires only that you unbolt the manifold plate on top, which holds all the hydraulic lines, and then pull up a little on each hydraulic line individually. The hydraulic lines will stay within the manifold plate - they are retained by small snap rings, and they will not get mixed up. Before sending the pump to Top Hydraulics, make sure to drain the fluid. You would not want fluid to soak your parcel. Wrap the pump inside a garbage bag or two, buffer the parcel well inside (so that the reservoir and solenoids won't get damaged during shipping), and tape up well on the outside. Top Hydraulics uses USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Boxes to ship pumps. I would recommend double boxing (squeezing one box of the same size into another).

The top can still be moved and locked manually without the pump in place, but there will be some fluid coming out of the disconnected hydraulic lines once you move any hydraulic cylinder.

I mentioned the possibility of an internal bypass in one of the locking cylinders before, so I will elaborate a little on that. Most modern convertible top systems are designed such that the locking cylinders always have pressure on one side when the pump is running. Pressure to the top of the cylinder will make the lock latch if the locking mechanism allows it, and pressure on both end will make the lock unlatch. The lock unlatches with pressure on both ends, because there is more cross section for the hydraulic fluid to push against on the bottom of the piston than on the top. Both the tonneau cover lock and the rear bow lock in the Crossfire are designed such that they cannot close unless the prong from the tonneau cover or the rear bow (respectively) have been received within the locking mechanism. This setup saves two valves on the pump. Having said all this, internal bypasses on the Crossfire's locking cylinders are extremely rare - I only brought this up because it is theoretically possible.

I will elaborate some more on cylinder leaks in a separate post.

Klaus

Top Hydraulics | Rebuilt and Upgraded Convertible Top Cylinders, Pumps, Hydraulic Lines - Top Hydraulics, Inc

 

+1 on what Klaus said ^^^^^^^^^

 

g3air, thanks for posting the pics.

The upper photo shows the hydraulic pump p/n 5142638AA and the tonneau cover lift cylinder p/n 5142641AA. The other two pictures show the right main lift cylinder p/n 5170015AA. You will notice that it is leaking hydraulic fluid on the bottom. That leak is actually from the cylinder, not from the hydraulic hose or the o-ring that seals the hose to the cylinder.

Top Hydraulics rebuilds and upgrades Crossfire hydraulic cylinders on a daily basis. We make them better than brand new ones (if you could still get them), with zero failure rate so far.

Five of the Crossfire's hydraulic cylinders have straight aluminum bodies, and they all have the same failure mechanism. These five cylinders are:
Right main lift cylinder p/n 5170015AA (located on the right outside bottom of the soft top storage compartment)
Left main lift cylinder p/n 5142639AA (located on the left outside bottom of the soft top storage compartment)
Right bow tension cylinder p/n 5170014AA (located inside the soft top frame, roughly above the right main lift cylinder)
Left bow tension cylinder 5142640AA (located inside the soft top frame, roughly above the left main lift cylinder)
Tonneau cover lift cylinder p/n 5142641AA (shown in the first photo above, next to the hydraulic pump in the trunk.

All of the cylinders above are manufactured the same way, using nearly identical seals. Each one of these cylinders has a number of seals inside: Two cap seals that seal the bottom and top caps/plugs from the cylinder housing, a rod seal that seals the moving shaft/rod from the upper part of the cylinder (specifically, the cap), a wiper seal that keeps debris out of the top cap, a piston seal that seals the piston from the cylinder housing (thus allowing the piston to move under pressure), and two port seals that seal the hydraulic hoses to the cylinder. That's a lot of seals, and Top Hydraulics truly upgrades all of them with better material (and better/larger geometries in case of the wiper, rod seal, and cap seals).

The seals that tend to fail first, are the cap seals. The seals decay with time - it's simply a chemical reaction. That chemical reaction cannot be avoided on the original seals. It gets accelerated with heat and with contamination in the hydraulic fluid. When a bottom cap seal fails, the fluid will actually be coming out of the hole for the mounting pin on the bottom of the cylinder. That's what you are seeing in your photos above. These leaks start slowly, and they will only grow. You need to take care of the problem, or it will only get worse. If you are seeing the leak on one side, then the matching cylinder on the other side will be soon to follow. DIY repair of these cylinders is not feasible. It takes specialized equipment, a lot of know-how, precision machined replacement parts to house the seals, and the right seals.

The two remaining cylinders are:
Rear bow latch cylinder 05142957AA (A1937500184 stamped on it)
Tonneau cover (storage cover) latch cylinder 05166559AA (A1937500183 stamped on it)
These two cylinders will typically fail first at the rod seal, and then at the port seal. Top Hydraulics upgrades rod seals, cap seals, piston seals, and port seals on these cylinders, and we estimate the life expectancy of our seals to be between 30 and 50 years, depending on circumstances.

If you are planning to hang on to your Crossfire for a long time, then it would be wise to have all seven cylinders upgraded in one swoop.

Removal of most of the cylinders is quite easy. You are welcome to send the latching cylinders mounted inside their locks. The left main lift cylinder, the left bow tension cylinder, and the tonneau cover lift cylinder have Hall sensors mounted to them. You do not have to remove the sensors - just unplug them from the wiring harness when you take out the cylinders. All hydraulic lines are fastened to the cylinders with retaining clips. The clips simply slide in a groove. Slide the clip out of the groove, and you can pull out the hydraulic line. Golden rule: retract the cylinder shaft before you remove a hydraulic line. That way, if you accidentally have a tool slipping, it won't scratch the polished cylinder shaft. In the rare case that a cylinder shaft is scratched or rusty, Top Hydraulics can replace it (for a surcharge) with one from our own manufacture, made of polished, hardened stainless steel.

I hope this helps,

Klaus

Top Hydraulics | Rebuilt and Upgraded Convertible Top Cylinders, Pumps, Hydraulic Lines - Top Hydraulics, Inc

 

Very cool, we do have an expert into the group.
I am very happy to see you here Klaus.
john

 

Yes, an expert, but at a price.
That being said, I have started a penny bank fund for the $750-$800 it's gonna take to have all my cylinders rebuilt at Klaus's palace.
( Rob at Needswings puts on SALES from time to time : HINT HINT )

 

^^ I had a feeling there were times you weren't hitting on all cylinders...

 

I think I have perhaps made the wrong impressions with the above post.
1. Klaus's prices are NOT out of range, and I apologize for having said 'palace', he runs a legitimate business.
2. Rob does NOT sell top cylinders, I was just making the point that NeedsWings has sales from time to time for forum members, perhaps Klaus could do the same.

Klaus has requested that I do a DIY on cylinder removal/replacement, I will look into getting that done. It will probably be just pictures and text in a pdf, I'm not any good at movies, I'll leave those to famous celebrities like pizzaguy .....

 

OK, here's what I understand so far:

1) I need to remove the convertible top hydraulic pump assembly and send it to Top Hydraulics for testing
2) If testing indicates, authorize Top Hydraulics to rebuild the pump as required
3) If the testing shows the pump to be operating normally, look for another cause for the top's operational problem
4) If step "3" is indicated, determine the remedy and perform it
5) Remove all seven top-related hydraulic cylinders and send to Top Hydraulics for rebuild
6) Put it all back together, add fluid and hope it works

This sound correct? I am a bit apprehensive about removing the pump assembly, but willing to have a go (any additional guidance or tips re that task are welcome)

Thanks for all the continuing help!

 

G3air,
you don't live around Colorado do you?
we can help
john

 

Here's the pump removal stuff from the service manual :