Scary when you realize how close this came to fruition and how far beyond our technology this was.
FOXNews.com - **** Germany's Secret Plan to Bomb New York

We didn't beat the ****'s causewe were smarter. We beat them 'cause we could out produce them

Can't do it today. WE DON'T MAKE MUCH OF ANYTHING!

Who doubts if that is the case anymore?


roadster with a stick

 

I believe Discovery Channel had a whole show on this..... I downloaded it though, might have been on Discovery UK. Pretty amazing stuff, actually. Just imagine if the ****'s had had submarine based missile capability - it would have been lights out for the Eastern US as they had subs patrolling up and down the coast for many, many years.

 

I have seen a Discovery or History channel documentary. Something with a WHOAHAAH! factor along with how close the Japs came to setting off the first nuke in San Diego harbor.
It is amazing how close the war came to having a different outcome.

So, let us not go to the moon. Let someone like the Chineese do it. And just to put a point on the irony, do it with our money.


roadster with a stick

 

Do not believe everything you see on TV, this is probably a tall tale edited and added to for marketing. Search the web for any credibility to this story and you find nothing concrete, just rumor and gossip.
Most of the German war machines that looked fanciful either failed to work properly or took too many resources for minimal actual effects. Mind you I saw a V1 and the engine quit above us, my mother was scared but it looked good to me. It worked just fine and flattened some buildings down the road . The V2 was a success too but it did less damage than a bomber, really a waste except for propaganda purposes.

 

The biggist reason the Allies won WWII is because the Americas, US and Canada out produced them.

We produced more planes, more ships, more tanks , more artillery, more landing craft, more food and supplies than the Axis powers.
Messeschmitt had better aircraft
Tiger tanks were superior
Mitsubishi Zeros carried more ordinace farther, and they were far more nimble in the air. It took two Corsairs to down them.
Their battleships dwarfed ours in size, range and firepower.

We like to think that the American fighter had more spirit, and more reason to win. The enemy in Europe and in the Pacific was as fierce and as determined. But the truth is the allied soldier had more logistical support which amplified his efforts and made the difference.

The allies captured much technology the public did not hear about for years. To wit, rocket powered interceptors and jet powered fighters were not allied inventions. The V2 was real and operational while the allies were still firing gunpowder ballistics. That the Germans would even try suborbital trans sonic flight is a testament to their technical skills and their determination to win.

The German Sub caught off the west coast with fissionable material on board was no tall tale and had nothing to do with marketing. It had to do with winning the war or at least coercing the allies to sue for peace.


roadster with a stick

 

I have no doubts that this was part of Hitler's ultimate plan, but according to the documentary it was very far from coming to fruition - they simply did not (yet) have the means to carry enough ordinance that distance, and safely return the pilot and craft to Germany.

As for the V1 and V2 weapons - my parents grew up in Belgium and saw more than a fair amount of destruction wrought by the V1s (buzzbombs they called them). My mom tells the story of hearing the unmistakable sound of their engines, but knowing they were safe until the engine cut out. That's when they fell back to earth and did their damage. The V2 was developed for longer range attacks, specifically Great Britain. The Brits did an admirable job of fending off standard fixed wing aircraft but would have been no match for a barrage of properly functioning ballistic missiles. Fortunately the allies were able to carry out effective bombing raids on Peenemunde and really put a crimp in advanced development of the weapon.

Had D-Day not been a success, Germany would have had more time to further develop the V2 and jet aircraft. As it was, the jet fighters they did place into service just before the end of the war were underdeveloped and short on range. But given time.......

 

The first operational jet fighters in WW2 came from the UK, beating the Germans by a month.
A German guy I worked with in the 1960's was training as a pilot of rocket powered planes, he said he was relieved when the war ended, they took of at speed and glided back when the fuel was used up, with short wings they fell like bricks he said. You could not land with power as it was too fast, so you had to glide, as a glider pilot before the war the powers that be said he was what they wanted, he was about seventeen or eighteen at the time. With a lack of fuel he was lucky never to get in one. He passed through the US lines coming west, a soldier saw him but told him to keep moving, he said he was grateful to that GI who could have shot him, he was still in uniform at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor

 

Yes, those little rocket powered "fleas" were dangerous to fuel and to fly. Tank of deadly Carbon Tet was held between the pilots legs. Contact with even a small amount of the fuel was lethal.

I have some links somewhere about them on my dead computer at home. One of the pilots was a woman, can't recall her name.

roadster with a stick

 

I don't mean to nitpic , after all you were there. But the historical data suggests that the Germans were well ahead of the Allies, including the British.

The Heinkel HE178 flew in 1939. While hardly operational in combat it led to the ME 262 which became the first truly operational fighter jet in the German Airforce,in 1944. With a kill ratio of 5 to 1 against the allies it could have changed the course of the war but the jet program was always underfunded and never found favor.
THe Gloster Meteor was launched in 1943 but not produced in any numbers. While a true jet aircraft it was infantile in developement and no match for the ME262. And it was 4 years after the He178 and several subsequent Heinkle attempts to provide the Luftwaffe with an operational fighter.

Which side had the first operational jet technology was clearly the Germans.
Which side had the first jet aircraft in military service would be the British. Well sorta*
Which side clearly deployed the best and most fighter jets would be the Germans.

I guess it depends on one's perspective. But my point was that technology, driven by the war effort, was clearly on the side of the AXIS Powers.

We as a nation need to keep our tech edge ahead of our competitors. The space race has provided the imputus for so many consumer products but in truth, it is justified and driven by our need to have military superiority.

But then the world order believes that to be silly. We can all just get along and besides, the USA is just evil. So cancel any program that provides fertile incentive for innovation or that improves our technological superiority.
Even though Barry claims them to be some of our greatest products.


roadster with a stick

*
WikiThe Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft.[5] It was produced in World War II and saw action starting in 1944 as a multi-role fighter/bomber/reconnaissance/interceptor warplane for the Luftwaffe. The Me 262 claimed a total of 509 Allied kills[6] (although higher claims are sometimes made[Notes 1]) against the loss of about 100 Me 262s. The Me 262 is considered to be the most advanced German aviation design in operational use[8] and according to some Allied historians it was an aircraft that might have won air supremacy back for the Luftwaffe. Nevertheless, the Me 262 had a negligible impact on the course of the war due to its late introduction and the small numbers that were deployed in operational service.[9] The Me 262 influenced the designs of post-war aircraft such as the North American F-86 and Boeing B-47.[

 

The Germans were well ahead no doubt, but many of the projects were too far ahead of their time and lacked proper advanced materials or technology to be viable or there was a lack of supplies that could be used on them.
That war produced a rapid advance in technology, just so people could kill one another more efficiently.
With the world and the US lacking money, it would be stupid to start an endeavor to return to the moon, more tax money would be required. We cannot solve the problems here due to a lack of funds, so why spend it on trips to the moon.
But I will never forget the moon landing, like Kennedy's assassination, I know exactly where I was when I saw the grainy images, Of course, it was a back lot in Hollywood, but it was well done.

 

Agree, on all points.
The suborbital concept appears viable only from the perspective of what we know today. From the perspective of 1944, mission impossible. The required exotic materials just didn't exist.

Peacetime advances go into war machines just as war advances go into peaceful use. We don't kill people to invent Radar any more than we built trucks so we can make better tank engines. War accelerates technology just as any peacetime crisis promotes advances. Famine and drought improves agriculural practices, war produces interstate highways systems.

What humans always do is compete. Sometimes that leads to war. Not justifying it. Just explaining the obvious.

Good chatin' with ya. Keep warm up there in the cold lands.
With luck you can get your Crossy out by May or June this year.


roadster with a stick

 

Germany lost the war because the Soviet destroyed the German Milita ry. It cost the Soviet 22 million lives to do it.If Russia would have fallen in 1942 which almost happened. the war would have ended then. No Stalingrad etc.. It was damn close. Gary

 

You are suggesting we, the USA, Canada, Britain and the Aussies, had nothing to do with it?

OK Ensign Chekov, explain. I know the wussians inwented eweryting. But I thought my dad, my father-in-law and my uncles had something to do with WWII. Maybe they were on vacation in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and Bastone.

 

If the Soviet fell in 1942 we would have met a deeply experienced six million man Wehrmacht with heavy Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine Support plus Panzer. at Normandy. NO chance... The Soviet destroyed those forces.. Read about Kursk. Gary.

 

With all do respect comrade Chekov,

If Britain fell in 1941 there would have been no way to launch D-day from there.
Had the Japanese not kept our forces engaged in the Pacific, the allies would have had twice the resourses availble for Europe.
Had the USA not been supplying arms, munitions, food and supplies to the Russians, they would have folded all the way to Siberia.
If, If, If,
No offense to the brave Soviets and the thousands who died stopping the Germans on the Steppes, in the Urals and at Stalingrad, but had the old sailor at #10 Downing not been so stubborn, it would have been a feata complea' in Russia.

Kursk was a decisive battle that soaked up the German's resources and time. We also had Bastone which did the same thing.
Both had one thing in common, defenders willing to stand ground and say to the overwhelming forces they faced, "Nuts"

With the possible exception (Dubious) of being the first to use the A Bomb, no one event or nation stopped the Axis Powers by themselves. Any nation that says so is an arrogant, disrespectful braggard.

Or French.

I'm just sayin..............



roadster with a stick

 

gotta interject here (and with the greatest respect to my American friends) but there are a few issues here which need to be cleared up...


IIRC the US never declared war on Germany, Hitler declared war on the US (thankfully!!) prior to that a LOT of aid was coming to the UK - however it wasn't a 'gift' it was lend/lease and the UK had to pay for it

If the Russians hadn't been bleeding the ***** dry on the eastern front d-day would/could never have succeeded - as it was it was pretty close - as far as the war in the east is concerned the biggest factor for the allies was...... LUCK plain and simple, the Germans delayed their invasion thanks to the Balkan campaign so they invaded in June 1941 rather than march as planned, Hitler would appear to be the only person to forget about the Russian winter which in 1941 came early and was one of the hardest for decades, despite this Moscow was only about 7 miles from the tacks of the panzers... If Hitler hadn't been so stupid with his "no retreat" mania it is very possible things could have changed (Stalingrad, Falaise pocket etc etc)... if Hitler hadn't been an evil racist he would have had help from large areas of Russia sick of Stalin... if the Germans had taken Dunkirque rather than pause for a few days letting the BEF escape things may have turned out differently

What finally did for the Germans was being out-produced and sheer manpower aligned against it...

as an aside

Best tank of WWII: Panther (IIRC this tank influenced tank design for decades afterwards with regards to cannon, suspension, targeting)
Most influential tank: T34 (IIRC this was also the most numerous tank ever built - even more so than the Sherman)

 

Yep, You got the Lend/Lease because that was the only legal way for FDR to send help.

My post#1 & #5 posts suggested that we simply out produced the Axis powers. Despite their technology and initial strategec advantages, the inevitable outcome would have been the ability to win by attrition. We, the allies and that includes the UK, simply had the greater resources at that time.

In all respect to our Brtitish friends, had you not had the stubborn tenacity to hang on, we would have had no place from which to launch and put that industrial might to use.

I agree with you on the tanks. Undoubtably the three best fighter aircraft of the war were the ME 109, the P51 Mustang and the equisite yet indomitable Spitfire.

I'm sure we will hear deferring comments on that

roadster with a stick

 

Now I need to add my two plug nickels since two of my favorite things, airplanes and history, are being discussed.

The what ifs of Germany's aviation developments have been bandied about for years. What if Germany had fielded the 262 in 1943 instead of 44? What if Germany had fully produced an intercontinental bomber capable of hitting US industrial targets? What if Germany had perfected the V2 guidance system leading to accurate destruction of British targets?

Problem is that many of these projects and proposals were nothing more than fanciful doodles. Those that did see daylight, such as the 262, were introduced as soon as practical. But even if Germany had accelerated development and had actually altered the air war, the eventual outcome would have been the same. Germany lost the war through ground combat and no aviation achievements of sci-fi proportions would have changed that.

Previous posts on the importance of the Eastern front are correct. Germany was doomed the moment Hitler rolled into the Soviet Union. Just as Japan was doomed the moment Pearl Harbor was attacked.

And while on the subject of production, Germany was merely outproduced by Britain, the Soviet Union, the US and a host of other countries. Japan by comparison was overwhelmed, crushed, and buried by the discrepancy in production.

As the saying goes; a good general studies tactics, a great general studies logistics.

 

There is another school of thought here that Germany simply started the war too early... by all accounts it was gearing up to be on a war footing for 1942(ish) so that was one problem

Another and maybe the biggest problem was that although Germany had an excellent grasp of tactical warfare it was a rank amature when it came to strategic warfare - think of the difference it would have made had Germany had Lancasters and Flying Fortresses as part of their arsenal. All of a sudden the Russian factories which had been moved to the other side of the Urals might have been at risk... British factories hard or impossible to hit with He111s or Do217s would be easily in range - I'd imagine even some of the eastern seaboard would be reachable (even if only on a one-way ticket.

Another Hitler stupidity (and Goering - of I've read my history correctly you could make a very good case for Goering to have cost Germany the war too!!) was the abandonment of the attacks on the radar installations and their attacks on our airfields - both of which were apparently scarily close to finishing us off (the bombing raid on Berlin therefore could have pretty much saved the world, even though it lead to the Blitz)

for those who aren't convinced about German aircraft design have a peak at the below 2 planes and think about them. Even in concept form they were streets ahead of the allies:

For those who either remember Korea or have seen footage from that conflict - does this look familiar?



and for more modern examples - how familair does this look?




The below site is fascinating (aand scary too!) - hope you enjoy

Luft '46 - WWII German aircraft projects

 

All the fancy planes and armaments would have been overshadowed by one weapon had the war in Europe gone on much longer or started later, the A-bomb. The first to deploy this weapon would have been the master of the battlefield, sadly Japan was not so lucky.
My favorite plane of the war was the Mosquito fighter bomber, faster than most fighters of the day even when loaded and accidentally the first stealth airplane. Twin Rolls Royce Merlin engines, and the airframe mostly wood.