Americans and their guns, a Canadian view.

[onehundred80]

A Canadian editorial from todays CBC website, according to this article you have shot more of one another since 1963 than those lost in wars in the 20th century.

Quote, `As the Guardian reported back in 2007, "Since the killing of John F. Kennedy in 1963, more Americans have died by American gunfire than perished on foreign battlefields in the whole of the 20th century.'

Is this tragic or your Constitutional right?

Americans and their guns

[dwightdmagee]

I am not a gun-zealot by any measure, but would have to challenge this 'statistic'. Guns aside, it seems that if-you-read-it-in-the-paper, it must be true. Even our own congressmen gather 'facts' this way when considering legislation; a hilarious sense of high-level due diligence.

In any event, more discussion to follow.

What are the Canadian gun laws? ... do you have the so-called right to bear and carry? ... as a base line for discussion, what are your death-by-fire arms statistics? Where do you stand as a Good Canadian Citizen on the issue? How badly are we wrong in our paranoia?

Regards.

[JHM2K]

A criminal will carry a gun into a business to do wrong, regardless of legality.

That being said, imagine two scenarios:

• You're enjoying dinner with your wife. A man battling depression comes in and uses his illegally-obtained, illegal-to-carry firearm and goes on a shooting spree. After all, his life sucks and therefore you shouldn't enjoy yours either. He casually plinks off one patron at a time, eventually targeting you or your wife, and then finally takes his own life... Cops arrive to find a bloddy mess that was literally a slaughter.
• You're enjoying dinner with your wife. A man battling depression comes in and uses his illegally-obtained, illegal-to-carry firearm and goes on a shooting spree. After all, his life sucks and therefore you shouldn't enjoy yours either. He draws his gun out to start taking his rage out, and squeezes off one shot before the gentleman with the carry-permit in the sport coat (up until this point, unnoticed) swiftly draws his Glock and drops the criminal in his tracks before further damage can progress. Although shaken, you and your wife are alive and suddenly thankful for those "Americans and their carry-permits".

LEGAL carrying of firearms is our right, per the 2nd amendment, and I exercise it daily. We never WANT to use our weapon, but, if the scenario dictates, we certainly will.

Making firearms illegal to carry (or own) won't protect the population... in fact, it will make them a sheep available for slaughter. The criminals will still own and carry regardless of the law. If the criminals are positive that you, the law-abiding citizen, are unarmed; you're a great candidate for burglary. After all... what are you going to do about it? Call the cops? Can't call 'em when you're dead.

Cheers

[apkano]

That's it.......guns just run around killing people!

We need to outlaw guns.....then people will have to stab the ones they want to kill. I suppose we'll have to outlaw knives then. Damn....it's hard to cut a steak with a spoon.


Still my favorite........

More people die from cars than guns!!!!!!



I think that pretty much sums it up!

[onehundred80]

Originally Posted by dwightdmagee

What are the Canadian gun laws? ... do you have the so-called right to bear and carry? ... as a base line for discussion, what are your death-by-fire arms statistics? Where do you stand as a Good Canadian Citizen on the issue? How badly are we wrong in our paranoia?

Regards.

Until the last 10 years or so Canadians could have rifles and shotguns without registering them. Then they tried to register all of them, this turned into a bureaucratic fiasco and cost a billion dollars plus. There is now a hold on this law, it still is required but they do not pursue prosecution.

Handguns are restricted and require a permit which is hard to get, these are for sporting purposes only generally. Some politicians have jumped on the bandwagon and want them banned period. As such Canada may not have any pistol shooters in the Olympics due to the closing of pistol ranges in some cities like Toronto. It would appear that criminals will be able to have any gun they want and a slap on the wrist if found with one.

Many of the illegal guns are smuggled in from the US and sold on the street, to the very people who end up on a slab in the morgue shot. These are your usual suspects, when an innocent victim is shot the hue and cry for a total ban is in the news again. This is totally wrong as the criminal element will not turn in their guns no matter what, as you well know.

Even with a permit for a handgun you cannot carry it in a concealed manner. It has to be locked up at home in a safe and during transportation to and from the gun club.

Toronto has a population of 2.5 million, the numbers of murders in an average year is around 90 -100, about half are from handguns, gangster types mostly, sadly from Caribbean immigrant communities.

Personally I think that handgun registration is good, long guns should not require registration. Penalties for using a weapon in a crime should merit extra time in jail, guns meriting even more time. I believe that people kill and if so inclined will use whatever is available.

The gun culture is deeply ingrained in the US psyche, most people in Canada and Europe find this frightening. I do not know what the answer is. I have never met anyone who has been shot, shot at or shot anyone. Can you say the same?

[onehundred80]

Originally Posted by dwightdmagee

I am not a gun-zealot by any measure, but would have to challenge this 'statistic'. Guns aside, it seems that if-you-read-it-in-the-paper, it must be true.
Regards.

Some info I dug up. No separation of gun crimes though.

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html
The chance of being murdered in Washington, DC in 1990 was 3 times greater than the chance of an American soldier being killed in the Gulf War. The average American city with a population of 250,000 or greater has a murder rate of about 20, whereas cities in the 100,000 to 250,000 range have a rate of about 12. About as many Americans were killed (over 54,000) in New York City between 1962 and 2002 as died in the Vietnam War, but the murder rate in 2002 was only about a quarter what it was in 1990, when there were a record 2,245 murders. Mayor Giuliani is credited with the transformation.

PROVINCES AND TERRITORIES RANKED BY HOMICIDE RATE, 2003

PROVINCE/TERRITORY
PER 100,000
(1) Nunavut
10.21
(2) Northwest Territories
9.55
(3) Saskatchewan
4.12
(4) Manitoba
3.70
(5) Yukon
3.22
(6) British Columbia
2.24
(7) Alberta
2.00
(8) Ontario
1.45
(9) Quebec
1.34
(10) New Brunswick
1.07
(11) Newfoundland
0.96
(12) Nova Scotia
0.85





NINE WORST STATES FOR MURDER, 2003

STATE

PER 100,000

(1) Louisiana
13.0
(2) Maryland
9.5
(3) Mississippi
9.3
(4) Nevada
8.8
(5) Arizona
7.9
(6) Georgia
7.6
(7) South Carolina
7.2
(8) California
6.8
(9) Tennessee
6.8

[JHM2K]

Originally Posted by onehundred80

NINE WORST STATES FOR MURDER, 2003

STATE

PER 100,000

(1) Louisiana
13.0
(2) Maryland
9.5
(3) Mississippi
9.3
(4) Nevada
8.8
(5) Arizona
7.9
(6) Georgia
7.6
(7) South Carolina
7.2
(8) California
6.8
(9) Tennessee
6.8

Thank God for current data, right?

[Stogey]

Originally Posted by JHM2K

A criminal will carry a gun into a business to do wrong, regardless of legality.

That being said, imagine two scenarios:

• You're enjoying dinner with your wife. A man battling depression comes in and uses his illegally-obtained, illegal-to-carry firearm and goes on a shooting spree. After all, his life sucks and therefore you shouldn't enjoy yours either. He casually plinks off one patron at a time, eventually targeting you or your wife, and then finally takes his own life... Cops arrive to find a bloddy mess that was literally a slaughter.
• You're enjoying dinner with your wife. A man battling depression comes in and uses his illegally-obtained, illegal-to-carry firearm and goes on a shooting spree. After all, his life sucks and therefore you shouldn't enjoy yours either. He draws his gun out to start taking his rage out, and squeezes off one shot before the gentleman with the carry-permit in the sport coat (up until this point, unnoticed) swiftly draws his Glock and drops the criminal in his tracks before further damage can progress. Although shaken, you and your wife are alive and suddenly thankful for those "Americans and their carry-permits".

LEGAL carrying of firearms is our right, per the 2nd amendment, and I exercise it daily. We never WANT to use our weapon, but, if the scenario dictates, we certainly will.

Making firearms illegal to carry (or own) won't protect the population... in fact, it will make them a sheep available for slaughter. The criminals will still own and carry regardless of the law. If the criminals are positive that you, the law-abiding citizen, are unarmed; you're a great candidate for burglary. After all... what are you going to do about it? Call the cops? Can't call 'em when you're dead.

Cheers

Yeah.....what John said !!!
I will give up my firearm when they pry my cold dead fingers off the trigger !

[Jesus_Christler]

A more likely US gunplay scenario: "pop" thy neighbor.

Before "shooting my mouth off", I did a little research. A reputable study notes 40 percent of homicides documented under a US reporting system (the majority committed with firearms) "were related to an argument or conflict not related to money or property" (italics mine).

Hmm ... I wonder what they mean by that? Google provides some interesting anecdotes.

full disclosure: I took NRA gun safety class in junior high (required for cadet corps) and ranked as sharpshooter in US Army.

[acrispy1]

You better stay north of the border, it's crazy down here. I guess that's why your not coming to Carlisle.

[Harleyracefan]

Thats ok with me.... if they dont like our gun laws.
let them stay right there.... were overflowing with immigrants anyway.
We didnt become the greatest superpower by saying (what will other countries think?) We showed them!

Bieng a victim sucks!!!!

(Ruger-P89-9mm )
(Bond Arms-45/410 Derrenger)

[JHM2K]

Originally Posted by Jesus_Christler

A more likely US gunplay scenario: "pop" thy neighbor.

Before "shooting my mouth off", I did a little research. A reputable study notes 40 percent of homicides documented under a US reporting system (the majority committed with firearms) "were related to an argument or conflict not related to money or property" (italics mine).

Hmm ... I wonder what they mean by that? Google provides some interesting anecdotes.

full disclosure: I took NRA gun safety class in junior high (required for cadet corps) and ranked as sharpshooter in US Army.

In 1978, my father was nearly killed. You see, he served his time in Vietnam. Hated violence but he knew that orders were orders. He was drafted.

He served, fought, survived. 68 sorties in a UH-1 as a door-gunner... the job had a life expectancy of around a minute or so. He flew 68 times. Came back alive and unharmed to his home in TN. Praise God.

But one warm day in 1978, it was his friendly neighbor, NOT the enemy he was mandated to fight, that nearly killed him. Not with a gun, however... a knife.

My dad's neighbor was going through marriage issues. Dad represented everything he hated. Dad was employed, saved, a loyal husband and a priceless father. No beef existed between these two men... in fact, dad had considered him a friend. But on that one day, this man charged across the property, unprovoked, and proceeded to stab, slice, and puncture my dad SEVENTEEN times. He left dad on the lawn to die. Again, by the grace of God... dad survived. I was born in 1984.

My point in all of this, is the LACK of a gun never prevented anyone from killing (or trying to kill) anyone. Brutality and attack will rear its ugly head anywhere it wants, and something as simple as an extension cord can be the instrument of death. While a gun certainly makes it quicker, we need to hate the SIN, not the instrument used during the sin. It would be the same as outlawing condoms because they allow people to commit adultery without a "birthed" consequence. People will still screw their neighbor regardless of whether it's legal, moral, or acceptable.

My dad has carried a .45 ever since that day in 1978. As much for his family's protection, as his. As for his justification? He still has the scars to show you why. When you've served your country and survived the Viet-Kong and others, you have every right to defend yourself from lunatics who will attempt to kill you by any means necessary.

If carrying guns offends you, it's pretty simple: don't. I'm sure your spoken word will be more than enough to convince the criminal to lay his gun down. And if it doesn't... then I suppose we'll be reading about you in the morning paper with a lump in our throat and a tear in our eye.

Mine stays glued to my side. Never displayed, never flaunted. But always ready.

[BrianBrave]

Reports say four stabbed at Toronto-area school - CNN.com

[Barbie]

I believe in the right to protect yourself.

I wonder what the death rate in America is due to all the people on meth? That's certainly out of control.

What if you had to contend with one of those crazies? I think I'd want to have a gun.

What about statistics on rape? As a woman I think we should have the right to protect ourselves.

[Jesus_Christler]

I simply brought up the stats because other posters were addressing property crime issues ... and in my extended family's daily existence you are more likely to be shot for "perceived slights" ... small disagreements along the level of those we have on this board.

180's concerns are valid. It's daunting to learn which hand gestures not to use and which colors to avoid wearing, where the Castle Doctrine is in effect ... among other things. Fortunately, family, school, friends, church and a few grant programs teach and reinforce "conflict resolution" lessons from an early age. (a good example of such a program).

[Franc Rauscher]

Originally Posted by JHM2K

In 1978, my father was nearly killed. You see, he served his time in Vietnam. Hated violence but he knew that orders were orders. He was drafted.

He served, fought, survived. 68 sorties in a UH-1 as a door-gunner... the job had a life expectancy of around a minute or so. He flew 68 times. Came back alive and unharmed to his home in TN. Praise God.

But one warm day in 1978, it was his friendly neighbor, NOT the enemy he was mandated to fight, that nearly killed him. Not with a gun, however... a knife.

My dad's neighbor was going through marriage issues. Dad represented everything he hated. Dad was employed, saved, a loyal husband and a priceless father. No beef existed between these two men... in fact, dad had considered him a friend. But on that one day, this man charged across the property, unprovoked, and proceeded to stab, slice, and puncture my dad SEVENTEEN times. He left dad on the lawn to die. Again, by the grace of God... dad survived. I was born in 1984.

My point in all of this, is the LACK of a gun never prevented anyone from killing (or trying to kill) anyone. Brutality and attack will rear its ugly head anywhere it wants, and something as simple as an extension cord can be the instrument of death. While a gun certainly makes it quicker, we need to hate the SIN, not the instrument used during the sin. It would be the same as outlawing condoms because they allow people to commit adultery without a "birthed" consequence. People will still screw their neighbor regardless of whether it's legal, moral, or acceptable.

My dad has carried a .45 ever since that day in 1978. As much for his family's protection, as his. As for his justification? He still has the scars to show you why. When you've served your country and survived the Viet-Kong and others, you have every right to defend yourself from lunatics who will attempt to kill you by any means necessary.

If carrying guns offends you, it's pretty simple: don't. I'm sure your spoken word will be more than enough to convince the criminal to lay his gun down. And if it doesn't... then I suppose we'll be reading about you in the morning paper with a lump in our throat and a tear in our eye.

Mine stays glued to my side. Never displayed, never flaunted. But always ready.

Always remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

I am so glad your father survived. Statisticly he may never face such a threat again. And yet.

The argument over gun control is so tragicaly silly. They exist. The genie is out of the bottle. No way, no how, all guns can be removed from the population. I'm sure the man who robbed me in Chicago ( a gun free city) had a permit for his weapon. As a law abiding (at the time lifelong democrat) citizen, I did not. This despite the sniper shots at me several years prior. Still have a spot on my right ear but not enough sense, at the time, to realize my vunerability in the real world.
In both cases, the cops could do nothing. The bad guy was gone. Only luck had prevented my demise and I was powerless to prevent the perps from moving on to other victims. Statistics infer that, most likely, they did.

The handgun does more to equalize everyone than any law can. Properly handled, a small woman can stand her ground, and her rights, acting as strong and tall as a huge man. But that is not why the Constitution insists on our right to bear arms.

Does anyone besides me find it odd that liberals rabidly defend all articles in the "Bill of Rights" except for the second one?

Perhaps Canada is home to a milder gentler people. Perhaps Americans are just murderous brutal slobs by comparison. How does removing my ability to defend family, my property and myself from a nation of thugs change that?

So, play with your statistics. It changes reality not a spit.

I carry.

roadster with a stick

[Barbie]

Sometimes you can't count on the police to be seconds away.

I don't believe you can always rely on the media and it may be reported but it's not always true.

The news in Atlanta reported about a year ago where the Police broke into a 90 something year old womans house and shot her. When all was said and done they had gone into the wrong house. Long story short, the woman had a gun and shot back.

I agree with Franc on having the right to bear arms. As a woman especially if you live in a big city you should at least have the choice in order to protect yourself. As Franc says even things up.

[///SilverSaphRT6]

I obtained my CWP (Concealed Weapons Permit) in Dec. 08..finally got my License in Mar. 09 after SLED ran me through National system. I am legal......so yeah you bet your @$$ I carry my .45 Ruger on my hip. Like Barbie said....you never know when a crazy @$$ meth person has a attack. With the Economy of today.....you never know when the pressure will get a person and what it will make them capable of doing.

[dwightdmagee]

Earlier I had suggested that 180's newspaper article might have misrepresented the facts of gun deaths in the US, so here they are as presented from the zillion page report (that the tax payers actually paid someone to produce, and I actually read) from the National Violent Death Reporting System (NVDRS). In 2006:

About 50,000 people died a violent death in the USA. 15,007 of those where by gunfire. 56% of these where suicides; 28% where bad guys getting shot by the cops; 15% where the type 'identified and horrified' in 180's CBC article. 0.7% where unintentional?

So, I guess that one could conclude that 180's article is a bit over-reaching and self-serving, as suspected. Sorry.

I also mentioned before that I wasn't a gun zealot. And from the responses above, I am no longer certain. Boy, mention guns and Americans do come a bit unglued, 180. Just count the responses to this thread. I still keep a few of my pistol shooting award plagues on the wall, always keep the same 1911 in the small of my back, but I still wouldn't call my self a bona fide gun nut.

Although there may not be as many passionate gun nuts and passionate gun deaths in America as reported by CBC, we still have more than our share of passionate nuts.

That may be the true difference between Canada and its Southern Neighbor. Maybe you Canooks spend too much time shivering indoors to get yourselves shot.

Sometimes I do think you live in a better place.

[Jesus_Christler]

Originally Posted by Barbie

I believe in the right to protect yourself.

I wonder what the death rate in America is due to all the people on meth? That's certainly out of control.

Depends on how close you are to Ted Haggard

Some responsible Republicans are making bi-partisan efforts to keep drug users out of money and off the street.

As for the rest of them ... well our neighborhood is fairly tight-knit. Our sheriff deputies cover the malls, banks, fast food joints and convenience/gas joints pretty well here. And community harassment is quite effective for our friends in the boonies.

Thanks to "Breaking Bad", news coverage and the restrictions on pseudophedrine, even the old folks in my area have become aware of the problems with meth making and could easily spot some of these bad characters a mile off. The problem is some key members of the conservative business and political cliques here are tweakers (ewww, gross) and can make your life hell if you cross them.