I agree with you completely. Yes, the rear mount would have the intercooler. As far as the charge pipe and filter location, I don't know yet. All I do know is that Corky is a great engineer and will use his skills to give us a well built and bulllit proof set up. Corky asked me some other questions regarding ease of installation and costs. We both agreed that cost is very important and a goal that must be met. On ease of installation he wanted to know if we want it super easy to install or if we could get an extra 30hp but the time to install was 10 hours longer would we still want the kit? My thought was that for the additional hp most of us would think the time investment was worth it if the price was still where we need it to be. Seemed like a hypothetical question and he didn't let on to what he was thinking of doing.

He seemed confident about the charge pipe and ground clearance.

 

Chances are, anyone installing this kit will have the car down for 2-3 days minimum. So, another ten hours for some safe HP won't hurt for the additional edge on a stock SRT

I'll certainly allow him the extra ten-hour mod on my car for the added ponies, since mine will likely be down for 6-8 weeks.

It is worth asking him about the addition of headers, and how they will affect the charge since the 8-9psi figure is based on stock exhaust flow-rates. Would added flow from a header spin the enhaust inlet on the turbo faster, resulting in more boost? I don't want to add headers and blow the rings from hitting an unsafe level of boost at WOT.

More questions for sensei...

 

Good to hear, but I would be lieing if I said I was still not worried. These lowered cars are low and I have been underneath both mine enough to know there is not sufficient room in the tunnel without serious rework of some existing items.

I am very excited to see his ideas...

 

Boost will be controlled by an ajustable waste gate. In fact adding boost to a turbo system is a lot easier than adding boost to a supercharged system! I know that in general headers are a good idea. I will ask him on a rear mount. On a rear mount the headers may reduce exhaust temps which you do not want.

 

Yea I am worried too. I am lowered with Voughtland springs. At this point I am just going to mention the problem with a lowered car and let him get creative.

 

Worth mentioning that many of the cars buying the kit WILL be lowered, as that's generally one of the first 'performance' mods done on this car, along with wheels/tires.

Even with an oval charge pipe, I am still a bit concerned. Hence my conditional statement in my post earlier.

If two small turbos pushing 4.5psi on each mani are feasible, this solves the charge pipe issue and ALL clearance woes. The headache begins when you try to make a twin-feed charge pipe look OEM and work with an engine cover. As we all know, headaches = $$$ to ultimately fix.

What I don't want to do is enter a turn hot, and straddle a Kerbstone mid-corner and rip the turbo off the car

Seems to me that designing a kit to work in the engine bay with less piping and retro-fitting would be more cost-effective than engineering 25' of piping to make a "simple" single rear-mount work.

We don't want to be like the military, spending as much on the fix as we spent on the problem in the first place. If a rear-mount introduces so many challenges, might as well take a fresh approach.

Stock log-style manis can be procured for cheap, if he would wish to use that as a component of the kit. Then you could run the Needswings cutouts and gain some silly power on the top-end. That party happens after the turbo, so it wouldn't affect boost at all.

Food for thought...

 

Good food for thought.... I personally would like to see two small turbo's where our cats are and move the primary cats to where the secondary ones are or leave them off. Problem is Corky would like to build a kit that is legal. One thing you might want to think about is taking the stock exhaust manifold and open the exit from 1.75" to 2.0" I recently bought a set of OBX headers which I am going to do this to. The OBX header is really just an original log style with larger pipes built from 304 16 guage polished stainless. They look like a copy of the VRP headers. OBX are not available for the V6 but are available for the C43/CLK430/500 which fits my car.

In Texas I don't have to worry about being "lgit" since the inspection is only done from the OBDII port. Cat location doesn't matter here. Only that it is functioning (or the ECU is fooled into thinking it is). The Needswings downpipes do fool the ECU so there is no CEL.

 

If OBX has no intention of making the v6 headers, it would be easy to mod the v8 headers by cutting the 2 front cyl. ports and plugging. It wold also be easy to replace the outlet flanges to someting more suitable for the turbo application.

 

Bored on lunch today, I took a moment to look at the GT-R's setup. I coded the exhaust bits red, charge pipes orange, and the post-intercooler pipes blue. See attachment below.

It's a twin-turbo, manifold based setup with dual FMIC. Complex, but if BEGi fabricates a lot of components "in-house" it may not be so bad after all. I'm sure he could simplify/modify the design as Nissan engineered this to be 100% compliant for all states and made it lawyer-proof.

While it wouldn't be the dirt-cheap way out, it certainly shouldn't cost huge amounts more than all of the extensive piping and brackets needed to run a rear-mount. From a hassle standpoint, it would be an install that could be done w/o having to put the car on a lift. Factory cat-back would remain, all four cats could be kept (why God, why), although they may have to be relocated, to help the folks in all states but California.

Speaking of cats, the ONLY way I can see keeping all four cats in-place would be to run the rear-mount. But, if the wheel has already been invented, why re-invent? Rob's downpipes are offered to anyone and everyone, and listed as off-road only, yet he's already sold ten or so sets. If Corky Bell's sales goals are 5-10 units to recover R&D, then he should have no problem designing a system that would sell in 49 out of 50 states. Use the downpipes as a solid foundation to mount the turbos, and you can use the stock exhaust manifolds on the car, keeping costs down. I'm not trying to be insensitive to the Cali Limited owners, but if a simple turbo kit with an elimination of two pre-cats can yield 350 HP for $3,500... it seems like you'd be missing a golden opportunity for sales in states that don't have such crazy rules. Sell all the units you can to the folks that can buy it, and cut the losses to the green-**** states.

Otherwise, we'll have six months and several thousands of dollars invested in a kit with lower potential, simply to keep four cats that are approaching the allowed government replacement allowance anyways (7/8 years).

Nonetheless, here's the photo of the GT-R routing... I think we can come up with something close :

 

I must be getting smarter because the schematic made perfect sense. I really like the twin set up and my son keeps asking me why the hood is always up on my car lately. I keep coming up with ideas and then go take a look! I am fine with eliminating the green **** states. I keep thinking two small turbo's where my primary cats are. I wonder if the two charges can come together in the intercooler? Like a two in / one out intercooler? It is still tight in there and you have to think about how the turbo gets positioned so you can make the inlets and outlets all point in the right direction.

Another thing I have been thinking about relates to the Kleemann supercharger. They are running 7lbs of boost with no ECU changes, stock fuel pump and stock injectors. The beauty of their system is that the car runs absolutely like stock when there is no boost. The driveability is perfect all the way to redline. The Kleemann s/c will work on 43, 430,500 and 55 engines. Most of the units are put on n/a 55 engines. Depending on year these cars have 10.5 or 11:1 compression. Our engines and 43, 430 and 500 engines all have 10:1 compression. 8lbs of boost is no problem with the v6 or my 500 engine. 10lbs of boost puts me over the stock 55K output takes n/a V6 past the stock SRT and into modded SRT territory. While 8lbs is the initial target, 10 is the magic number for me. I also heard something interesting. Evidently our n/a pistons have thicker domes and may be stronger than Kompressor pistons according to one of the MB tuner/engine builders I talked to.

I will see what Corky thinks about the twin 49 state set up.

 

I'm not sure you can have a two-in/one-out FMIC... Using the illustration above, if the intercoolers are jutted against one another, the overall effect is the same as one broad FMIC. As for getting the two pipes with cooled air into the intake manifold, refer back to Needswings and simply shorten the dual CAI. Instead of two lengths of silicon piping passing through the core support, you could route the cooled charge pipes (blue ones) up into a 90° bend, to a shortened dual CAI. Problem solved.

The intake pipes that draw fresh air could be passed through the rad support, in the exact same fashion as NW dual CAI. Two elbows and two small K&N filters, relocate the horns and power steering lines, and presto.

Like you said, mount the two small turbos where the first two primary cats are. This solves all space issues and places the turbos at the back of the engine bay, helping to keep the heated components as far back as possible.

Using modified Needswings components, or a setup very similar (we may need piping smaller than dual 3"), I think we could come up with a very inexpensive twin-turbo setup. As you said, I think our engines could safely hold 8psi, maybe more. Each turbo pushes 4-5psi. The turbos would be the single costliest component, but if he's using the Chinese Garretts, the price should be fairly low. Smaller turbos cost less... keep this in mind. Two small ones can cost roughly the same as one big one.

 

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh Noooooooooooo, we SUCK AGAIN !!!!!
2005 Ragtop
Ridgecrest, ca.

 

LOL, I didn't think any Californians were following this.

 

Lantana, John,
Have looked on wistfully as the balance of the lower 48 blithely install CAI, larger TB's, maf'S, ETC., ETC., ETC. and achieve H.P. gains. Had hoped my salvation would be Kleeman. But NOOOOOO. The M112 bottom end won't hold up, the flywheel and pressure plate, throw out bearing and 6MT tranny are suspect, inadequate. Any solar powered mods ????

 

Not sure where you heard of weak bottom end and suspect trans. Kleeman sold a few of the 112 s/c kits and they seem just fine. In fact you would be suprised how many parts on the 3.2 V6 are the exact same pieces in the 43 and 430 V8 which have the same bore and stroke which Kleeman still sells a s/c kit for. I think the problem with the 112 kit which is no longer produced was a $10K price tag. Brandon at Kleeman even told me his main clientele is the n/a AMG 55 engine even though the kit works on any 113. As far as the tranny goes, we had a member here that put a SRT motor in his six speed car and only used the car for racing with no trans failure. He did upgrade the clutch but not becuase the old one ever failed. He just upgraded while he had the car apart.

 

Are You a surfer?

Disneyland is 40 Years past its Prime.The epic waves of southern California are the only draw I can Possibly see to consider moving there

( and I am.) Considering that is. But New South Whales is Infinatly More cost efective and Gas powerd lawn Mowers have yet to be Outlawed There.

MOOOVE!!!!!

 

I spoke to Corky agian today and I may be meeting John at his shop on Saturday. We also dicussed twin turbo's, EPA laws, CARB rules and rear mount. Corky said unless he gets 100 orders from CA, he is not planning on CARB certification. He did say he sells kits to CA all the time and that any kit he builds will pass a emissions test.

At this point he is still open but heavily leaning to the rear mount. He sees some real advantages for this on the Crossfire without sacrificing hp. He love the stock exhaust set up as it is perfect for a rear mount turbo. He also said he wants to make sure there is room for a huge turbo should someone crazy demand way more power in the future. Here is what he was thinking today on the rear mount.

1. The system will be contained in a mounting system/frame and then bolted to the car. This makes installation easy since the kit can be put together on a bench.

2. The turbo will be both water cooled and oil cooled/lubricated. the water cooling will be a self contained system hidden in the rear bumper. the advantage to this is keeping the oil cool so you don't have to change your Mobil 1 more often. With the water cooling he recommended oil changes wtih Mobil 1 will be 7,000 miles.

3. While we are worried about ground clearance and especially so on a lowered car. Corky isn't worrid near as much as we are. He has faced this before and has made a very thin but wide and strong retangular charge pipes. I also told him about a retangular frame rail on each side of the chassis. You have to remove the fender liners to see it. If that rail doesn' have holes in it, it just might end up being a charge pipe or carry wires and oil lines.

4. He wants to do a back pressure check on the stock muffler because he thinks it may have too much back pressure. He can't include a muffler at the price we are talking. After testing if is is OK but marginal he may end up saying you can use the stock muffler but it is recommended to use a Magnaflow or similar.

I did ask him about the twin turbo where the cats are and he said he has moved cats on some of his existing kits. In some cases it is just moved a little so it looks legit unless you know the specs and have a tape measure.

I will discuss all this when we can talk together in front of our cars and hopefully be able to share what the final design will look like.

 

Personally, I feel a single turbo on the passenger side rear of the engine makes the most sense. As a matter of fact, I am certain I could place a turbo in that location, use the stock manifolds, mount a front mount intercooler, and route through majority of the exhaust. Or if cats be dammned, a single down pipe and single hi flo cat.

If going remote mount, then DO NOT use a Shur-Flo style scavenge pump unless you want oil leaks forever. Also, in almost 100,000 miles of personal testing on the Hemi's, there is no reason for the expense of a self contained water cooled turbo. I routinely run 7,000 miles on a Mobile 1 oil change, and I have never had an oil issue or a turbo failure. A remote turbo just does not get that hot.

I looked over some info on the Kleeman fuel system, and it is basically using a form of rising rate fuel pressure to drive increased fuel through the stock injectors. While I am sure it has worked well in the applications previously used on, I would much prefer using larger injectors and having the ability to adjust the tuning.

On an NA motor, combustion chamber temperatures must be controlled or upper ring land failure is a given. Typically, tuners retard timing to reduce the cylinder pressure which reduces chamber temps while running an overly rich fuel mixture which further decreases chamber temps. It is not uncommon to see an AFR in the low to mid 10's when in boost.

By running larger injectors, using very modest timing retard, and using water meth injection to keep chamber temps in check, I target an AFR around 11.8 which results in significantly more power than the same boost at a 10.5 AFR.

IAT temps and total combustion chamber temps have far more impact on total power output per lb of boost than anything else. I can take two identical cars, and make more power on one at 6 lbs of boost than the same car running 8 lbs of boost.

Why? Cooler air and cooler combustion chamber temps contain more oxygen and therefore more potential power output. While an intercooler might drop temps 40-50 degrees, water/meth can drop the intake charge by 50-70 degrees, and reduce chamber temps another 200 plus degrees. This requires far less timing retard and no need to run an overly rich AFR. Result is more power output per lb of boost.

The NA crossfire uses both a MAP sensor and a MAF sensor. While this makes things more difficult, it can be overcome. However, there will have to be either direct tuning of the ecu or supplemental electronics to control the signals going to the ecu.

I have yet to see a modern OBDII vehicle with the newer engine designs which feature higher compression, shallow upper ring lands, tight ring gaps, and short piston skirts, tolerate aftermarket forced induction without controling combustion chamber temps by a combination of timing retard, fuel addition, and/or intercooler/water meth injection.

The 3.2 NA has all the engine internal design issues above, and the ecu will not tolerate the addition of boost without either ecu program modification or a supplemental computer to control both fuel injection, timing retard, map/MAF sensor values, and in many cases o2 sensor control to address closed loop boost fuel correction where the ecu will drive a 14.7 AFR unless additional measures are taken to control it.

 

I agree with you on some points such as cylinder temps and IAT to make power. I hope you will turbo your Corssfire and let us know how it goes. The MB Electronics are not the same as what the Hemi guys get to play with. MB has gone out of their way to prevent us from screwing with their systems. I know first hand how hard it is just to recode one of these to another car. I did a base line dyno on my car a few weeks ago, and the a/f ratio was at 14.7 at idle and was in the 13's by 3800 in the 12's by 4500 and at 12.24 at 6200.

Our three valve motor shoud have a better v/e than the hemi. Instead of an iron block and aluminum heads, we are all aluminum which may help a bit. Many rear mount turbo's don't use an IC but adding one has dropped IAT to ambient in some cars. Like you I questioned the need for water cooling on a rear mount and Corky gave me his reasoning which sounded good to me. He gave me some reasons which related to performance but what cuaght my attention was that the oil going through the turbo would never see the boiling temp and would not require more frequent oil changes becuase of turbo. With the price of a oil change on cars, sounded good to me. My V8 takes 9 quarts of Mobil 1. If Corky cares about these details then I am glad to be working with him.

If you can achieve proper increased fueling through a BEGI regulator then why change the injectors? The stock injectors have the beauty of perfect OEM performance when not under boost. The approach to tuning that you suggest has been tried and yet to be proven on these engines. I would love to see you make it work. Of two documented projects using your approach one is still trying to get the bugs out and the other engine expoded. The only mass produced kit that has been successful on these n/a V6 and V8's has been Kleeman. No blown engines. I think their way which was pioneered by Corky Bell is worth giving a try.

Here are two interesting quotes from Kleeman:

"The MB M113 engine is a tuners dream. 3 valve head, reverse cooling flow etc etc- it won't pull OE timing on 7 psi if the temps are good. If they aren't it will pull timing by virtue of "incipient knock detection" from the OE double knock sensor system"

"FWIW- we made 333 hp and 330 tq on the M112 motor with our SC system. 6.5 psi boost- with a mechanical SC! 8 will probably net you more than that- but it all depends on air density. The question you asked will be answered by empirical data gleaned from the mule car, too many variables for me to hazard a guess."

And one of my favorites:

Tell Corky I want to come see him in SA and go feral hog hunting with him ;o)

 

I know, I have to keep the car registered at the NV address because while there are almost the same Smog restrictions in NV they are not required to do a visual inspection if all the tests come up as a pass.