If GM and Chrysler hadn't gotten themselves into this mess, they wouldn't need to come to us for money.

Should we just hand out stacks of cash to these private corporations without any conditions at all (like we did for Wall Street)?

Stop the hysteria already.

 

It does seem GM cars have gotten better. The Malibu is nice. The Vette is world class, and the new Camaro seems great (they squeezed lots of mileage out of a powerful V6 - not really sure 'bout the V8). The Volt is supposed to be a game-changer, but we'll see. Anyway, GM made shitty cars for decades, have had too many divisions for decades, and it couldn't keep going that way. It's a terrible shame that American cars were once the envy of the world, and now Detroit has a tin cup out. Perception is reality, and perception doesn't change quickly or easily. Sad.

 

The price of automobiles has gotten so insane, that I doubt that most if not all manufacturer's, will be viable for some time to come.

GM pinning their future on the new Camaro! Though it looks to be very nice. Never happen

The Volt? I do not think so.

30, 40, 50 thousand. Good luck selling cars Price to wages is way off.

The Times they are a changin....Dylan

 

Or,
" I always wanted one of those."


roadster with a stick

 

Well yes! We, the non USA purchasers, paid Chrysler USA for a product with a warranty. Now I don't know where that money went and I don't give a damn, but are you seriously saying my warranty on a Chrysler in Europe is irrelevant because I'm not American?

Andy G

 

Well yes. If the US is picking up the tab (not Chrysler) then why would you expect them to help you, just because you bought from, what turns out to be an unreliable company.

Now I'm sure it will cover you, but it shouldn't in my opinion. No offense intended I wish we could just throw money around like it was printed on paper (and we do) but we can't (but we will).

Dh

 

Hey, put the hammer down gently there pal. And holster it. Your purchase of an American product is extremely relevant. It is exactly my point.

I am saying that most Americans haven't put into perspective, the scope of this takeover of GM by the White House. President OBAMA has promised a vague reassurance to American car buyers. You know, the ones who will decide his future by voting. He said nothing about foreign sales.

As to the car you have already purchased. That warrantee lies in the future of the company, be it GM or Chrysler. This because Obama did not garrantee that existing warrantee. For you or for us here in America. However, his clever timing and words did not exactly make that small little detail clear.

This was all an attempt to make us feel comfortable with his takeover of GM. As I said, a little sugar. It is BS or as we say here in the colonies, "Pure Pelosi"

The class warfare that has erupted has pitted US Blue collar union supporters against the US big business tychoons. This is not limited to USA markets or USA issues. This is a global issue.

We have lost sight of the total picture. This is a brutal attempt to nationalize core industries. If it reminds you of the 1920's depressions in Italy and Germany, you are either very old or well read.

More to the point, you are right.


roadster with a stick

 

No offence taken and none meant, but is this not protectionism of the worst sort? Chrysler has become unreliable because of macro economics. Yes it contributed to its own downfall and there is a certain Darwinian process at work here, but the same thing could happen to Boeing.

If their aircraft started to fall out of the sky would liability only extend to US citizens killed and injured?

Let's just run that argument a bit closer to the topic. GM owns Opel and Vauxhall in the EU. Now those companies should have contributed to the wealth of the USA as the global profits are returned home; same thing for Ford but they are playing their 'get out of jail card'. So, the US has benefited economically from it's trading position with EU customers. Now you suggest it's perfectly acceptable to fail to honour warranties outside the US because Uncle Sam is having to pick up the tab?

Follow that to its conclusion and GM will instantly implode as their EU divisions can close their doors right now - today. No one is going to buy a Vauxhall or Opel because they will have no warranty.

The next phase of that argument is that the UK and German governments should bail out Vauxhall and Opel. Guess what: they are doing just that and by bailing them out they are protecting the jobs of the GM workers in the US. Maybe only until the end of the month but Merkel and Brown are at least offering hope and not just standing by and saying it's your problem Obama.

 

I'm kind'a numbed at the whole Wagoner thing and it's relevant here. I can't understand how Blue Collar, or even White Collar America can sit by and stay stum when an elected representative (President or no) uses their influence to

(a) Force a Corporate resignation
(b) Force two companies into bankruptcy

I thought that only happened in the UK where we have the whole thing with RBS and Sir Fred Goodwin. I honestly believe the US system of politics is a lot better than ours; it's just mindnumbing to see the dodgy comparisons.

 

I agree with all of the above. Unfortunately many of the current government's supporters aren't worried about that. The are looking for their government check in the mailbox, watching and cheering the President kick the "rich" blue eyed CEO's butt.

The reality of the consequences is distant from their minds.


roadster with a stick

 

Andy, it's good to hear someone from the UK say they think the US political system is better. Obama was elected on the mantra of change, and that is exactly what he's doing, only people didn't realize what exactly the change would be if they didn't look at his record and who his associates were. It appears Obama's ultimate goal is reinvent the US to look more like Europe, a Social Democracy. We have often accused him of being a Socialist and he denies that. Well, it's semantics, he wants to take what he believes is the best of both worlds between Democracy and Socialism, like much of Europe did in the last century. Right now so many of us more concerned about how all this is affecting us personally, so we drink his koolaid hoping it will restore our 401k's and thus give us security. We will pay the devil to do that.

 

I'll keep it general, ravery. We have a democracy, of course but it's also a Monarchy. Now perhaps that's only ceremonial and not really relevant but it does perpetuate a Class System. It's this that still blights UK politics but this is wandering off the already hijacked topic and politics should really be off topic anyway.

Bottom line on the who pays debate: you can't unscramble an egg. It doesn't matter if it's a dollar drawn on the Bank of America to pay for my warranty or a GB Pound drawn on the Bank of England to pay the little guy in the US who supplies widgets to Vauxhall in the UK. We're all in it together and we have to avoid protectionism if we are to climb out of the pooh.

Cheers

Andy G

 

Andy, do you blokes really talk like that, or are you making it up just for us?

In any event, I like it.

 

Dwight

I'll take that as a compliment

I'm a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to writing so I try to keep up the basic standards. I guess we don't really talk like that so there's an argument that says we shouldn't really try to be something we're not. Then again, I don't think anyone would be happy if we all reverted to text speak: kno wot I mean M8

I'm also trying to get two novels published so I can't let the side down

Cheers

Andy G

 

That's ridiculous. It's an attempt to rescue two huge companies from bankruptcy, because allowing them to fail would cost 3,000,000 American jobs.

GM should have been broken up long ago, but they weren't. Now they're "too big to fail". Great.

 

The government should have thought of that before they forced the banking industry to give subprime mortgages to 3,000,000 people who couldn't make the payments.

Or before they banned domestic offshore oil drilling and forced the price of oil to $140.00 a barrel so our enemies could pull $700 billion dollars out of outr country every year.

Have you read any of Barrack Obamas books? This is the stuff he suggested and he believed would make a better society. Did you think he was kidding?
His redistribution of wealth isn't based on just taking money from the rich. His core belief is that our society would be better and more fair with a centralized control of the economy.

Obviously, he controls the banks now. He sent them piles of money, some $ 1.7 trillion, which somehow has not trickled down to the folks who need
it. Now he is extorting control over the auto industry for what, a mere $75 billion in loan garrantees.

Why can't the banks he filled up with money last month, loan money to GM and Chrysler? Any other down turn in auto sales, they would have borrowed against credit lines and gone forward. Couldn't do it this time because the banks were locked up with Barney Franks follies and chris Dodds friends over at AIG. Why can't they?

Because Obama said NO!

GM won't go bankrupt. It is the last thing Obama wants. They will go under as a car manufacturing company but if bankruptcy happens, the union is out. I predict he will keep it out of bankruptcy but disfunctional. We the taxpayers will see to it that the union workers get their pay. At the very least in the job banks. The board will get vilified, fired and replaced a few times but if the company has to cow tow to Washington to do anything.....they are finished.

GM will twist in the wind until we can't stand the pethetic sight of it or the smell.


roadster with a stick

roadster with a stick

 

Man, don't me started on the realities of the sausage factories -- I mean politics and business. Politic and big business occur in another universe -- quite different from the ones most of us live in.

Yeah, whatever. Listen to Jack -- "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!!!"

So, how's bout our warranty going forward from here? I might have to change my oil 'very 1000 miles just to keep it from shrivelling away....

 

A good read:

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...330_354984.htm

 

The real problem with political discussions in the US of A is that finding a true independent thinker is a diamond in the rough. I have never come across a person who isn't merely regurgitating the typical democratic or republican agenda. That's why it is tearfully boring to engage in any political discussioin with anyone because there is no real discussion.

The reality is that all politicians are of the same stripe: politics. You think, speak and do independently? You become marginalized and reduced to insignificance.

Take this whole oil situation. Think refineries. Our refineries are working at full capacity. Now, the world apparently is not short on the crude but it is on the refined crude -- the stuff that we the consumers use. Why not build more refineries? The democrats won't support it because of their wimpy fear of their liberal constituents. The republicans won't support it because the big oils and the refineries don't want the supply to increase too much lest the prices fall. The public ain't too happy with a refinery in their back yards.

Yawn...

 

To HELL with Chrysler. They should be forced to go under. They don't deserve a dime in gov't assistance in any way, shape, or form. Chrysler is so full of overpaid, underworked people in any company in the US. Cerburus took a chance and if it does not work out, or well, you tried but failed. The UAW really f***** up this company big time.