Hello,

i found an article in the Forum about the Lysholm-Supercharger for the AMG V6. What I don't understand is : If the supercharger is driven at 3,3 times the crankshaft speed ,it runs max.6.220 x3,3 = 20526 RPM STOCK !!

Others say it runs max. about 16.000RPM STOCK...

Which statement is correct?

Kind Regards Bruno



Unlike the Roots-type Eaton blower used on the supercharged Mercedes four cylinder engines, the 260kW engine uses a very sophisticated Lysholm-type supercharger produced by IHI in Japan. Driven at 3.3 times crankshaft speed, the helical lobe supercharger develops up to 1 Bar (14.5 psi) of boost. One of its two cast aluminium rotors is Teflon-coated (it's the yellow one), and the supercharger drive is through an air-conditioning style electromagnetic clutch. Despite the high efficiency of this design of supercharger, the blower still requires 45kW to power it when the engine is at its 6220 max rpm. Of course, the blower is also then flowing a lot of air - up to 1200kg per hour of it, in fact.
In order that the supercharger could be fitted into the already tight confines of the SLK and C-class bodies, it has been mounted within the 'V' of the V6. Sandwiched between the supercharger and the inlet manifold is a reverse-flow heat exchanger for a water/air intercooling system. Aimed specifically at reducing temperature peaks (an area where Mercedes-AMG engineers believe that an air/air system can be less effective), the system has its own radiator and electric water pump. The complete supercharger and intercooler system adds only 25kg of mass - so the power/weight ratios of the two cars equipped with the upgraded drivetrain are radically improved!

The supercharger engages only as required; when it is not being driven, the intake air flows through its rotors (ie no external bypass is fitted). Supercharger operation is dictated by the Bosch ME 2.8.1 engine management system on the basis of engine speed and load. However, the supercharger, which is driven from the engine's serpentine belt, will not engage at engine speeds over 3000 rpm - if this occurred, the belt stresses would be too high. If required, the engine can develop 400Nm from 2300 rpm to 6100 rpm.
The better breathing and engagement-on-demand characteristics of the supercharger have not turned the engine into a polluting and thirsty monster. Mercedes-AMG engineers are proud that that the C 32 AMG has a NEDC combined fuel consumption of just 11.5 litres/100 km and already complies with the EU 4 emissions standard that does not come into effect until 2005.

 

I dont understang this part. I have a boost gauge and im telling you the s/c is building boost over 3000rpm. And our rev limiter is set at 5800, if we could rev to 6100 as stated our cars would be much faster as on the dyno the curve is still heading upwards at 5800.

 

Mine rev's to 6,175 at the least, suppost to go to 6,200 . I know, smart a$$ .

 

My SRT now revs to 6,200. When I leave it in first gear, go to WOT and let the tranny shift on it's own; it will shift gears at 6150 RPM - The more I drive this car after the ECU tune, the more impressed I am with the SpeedInnovations Tune.

 

I thought the same thing at first...but it actually says that the ECU won't engage the SC over 3000 RPMs. It will engage it below those RPM's and hold it until redline. Make sense now? Tricky bastards...

 

I don't recall for sure when the SC kicks in with the RENNtech tune, I'm thinking they said 2,500 RPM. I need to hook me up a little LED to the clutch circuit so I know when it pulls in.

 

Jerry you are right. It means over 3.000 RPM the SC is always on!!


Anyone an idea about my Question about the MAX. RPM of the Supercharger ?

Bruno

 

The MAX our superchargers can handle is 20,700rpm.
With the stock crank pulley, we run around 14,500 rpm.
With the 185mm pulley, we run around 18,700 rpm.

You do the math.

SQ

 

hm.. still plenty of room.. for safety or extra pushing...

 

Have you guys seen this article? It is from our brothers at mbworld. It was from a Taiwan tuner who did some serious mods to a C32. The ending quarter mile numbers don't add up, BUT the interesting part is where the tuner mentions upping the crank pulley to 182mm and decreasing the supercharger pully to 72mm. So it seems to me that LET has done nearly the same thing with their 185mm pulley...obviously you still have some supercharger RPM left with a 185mm pulley like Sidez mentioned, BUT the efficiency of the supercharger decreases as RPM increases. Longivety also decreases with increased supercharger RPM, so to get the full potential of the engine and its boost capabilities I think you need to look at more efficient means at creating higher boost levels above the 185mm pulley...Thoughts?


http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showth...0hp+who&page=3


Dear all, spent sometime translating the report from the Taiwan Tuner who make 500hp C32. My English is not that good, hope you guys can read. Let me know if there are typos and errors as i did it in a rush.


Located north of Taiwan, best known for modding AMG cars, “Hin Yu Tuning” founded by a 15 year MB technician, Mr Ling. He created numerous modded AMG monsters from AMG55s to AMG32s. His modded engines are of high compressions, superb cooling capabilities, yet durable. In terms of quality, acceleration, durability and completeness, his cars are comparable with all original AMGs.

W203 C32 and all AMG55 are famous car for modding in our territory, C32 engine is a M112 SOHC 3 valves 3.2L V6 supercharged engine (354hp/6100rpm, 45,9kgm/4100rpm). AMG55 is a M113 SOHC 3 valves 5.5L V8 engine (476hp~500hp/6100rpm 71.4kgm/2650-4500rpm) Originally, the cars have high output. However, in order to keep the engine more durable, and to cope with environmental issues, the boost is adjusted to a lower levels. (C32AMG ~1.1bar, 55AMG~0.8bar) Therefore, increasing the boost pressure is the easiest way to extract more power and accelerations out from these engines.

The best way to increase boost pressure is to use either a smaller supercharger pulley or a larger crank pulley to increase the speed of the supercharger, thus forcing more air into the engine. Take C32AMG as an example, the original C32 supercharger pulley measures 74mm, crank pulley, 150mm. You may reduce the supercharger pulley to 72mm, with a crank pulley of 170mm-182mm to get more power. With the installation of a Schrick 272 duration cams and a 182mm pulley, the boost can reach 1.7-1.8 bar (original 1.1-1.2bar). this mod can bring the power of the C32 from 354hp to 450hp.

In order to improve the intake, the air filter are changed to a high flow filter, allowing more air into the engine, enhancing the benefits from the cams. Exhaust system are replaced by an equal length stainless steel headers, 74mm, 80mm downpipe, racing cats, and a quad exhaust muffler finished in AMG tips to increase exhaust flow. The system produces a deep sound at low rpms and a high pitch sound at high rpms.

Optimum ignition timing and fuel amount is controlled by computer chip produced by Pro-Tech. Sparks plugs are upgraded to Iridium Plugs. The original fuel pump and fuel injectors are already at high performance and need not be replaced.

As most of the engine parts of AMG car are forged, there is no need to replace. However better cooling is needed as the biggest enemy to high compression engines is heat. The radiator is therefore replaced by a larger unit, an intercooler is added with the Aquamist spray cooling system. (Valve opens at preset boost, water is sprayed to the radiator for max cooling, good for any car type)

Another part needed to be changed is the fuel cooler branched from the air conditioning system, this fuel cooler can reduce the temperature of the fuel, decreasing engine detonation at high rpms, protects the engine from the damages caused by high boost pressure. This cooling mod can increase the durability of forced induction engines. Coolant and engine oils uses original AMG products. For example Mobil 1 0W-40 is the recommended engine oil for AMG cars, providing superb engine cooling and lubrications.

In fact C32AMG can take on the valve cover of the later 3.7L SOHC 3 Vales W220-S350, Cylinder block and the forged valves of the E55AMG.. this mod can bring the displacement of the C32 to 3.7L level to produce more output. This is the famous mod for Hin Yu Tuning. Thismod prduces more mid to high end torque, coupled with a supercharger specifically for 4.0L engines to produce an output of about 500hp. His cars are the AMG of AMGs.

This exotic W203 C32KT 3.7L is one of the highest output of the 5 C32KT Hin Yu Tuning has ever produced. This car fears all exotics on the road and its famous of the use of the W220-S350 block.

The 3.2 V6 cylinder matches the 3.7L V6 block perfectly, also the oil pan matches perfectly too. With the 3.7L block, boreincreased from 89.9mm to 97mm, with the same stroke of 84mm, displacement increased from 3199cc to 3724cc. With the larger displacement, the original C32 supercharger is no longer capable for producing high boost, boost is lowered to below 1.0 bar.

Therefore Hin Yu Tuning decided to replace the Whipple supercharger with the 05-06 Mustang GT 4.6 supercharger. The whipple supercharger is also a twin screw supercharger, model# M6066-M463. The physical size of the supercharger needed to be reduced 1mm all round to ensure a perfect fit to the 3.7L engine. Boost level is increased to 1.5bar with proper intake, pulley upgrade.

To increase engine response, Hin Yu tuning added a Schrick 268/272 Hi Cam to increase intake duration, together with the forged valves from the E55AMG, equal length valves can also increase engine strength.

With the ITG high flow filters, equal length headers, dual straight downpipe, high flow racing cats, and a quad exhaust muffler, the intake and exhaust flow is enhanced. Lastly with a fuel regulator, Iridium plugs and a Pro_Tech computer chip to optimize ignition timing for the best output.

In terms of transmission, only the final gear requires modding, the existing transmission on the C32AMG is very similar to the E55AMG transmission in terms of structure and gear ratio.

For cooling, Hin Yu Tuning has replaced a larger radiator, oil cooler, added an internal intercooler, high flow water pump and Aquamist to reduce engine heat.

Suspension uses Bilstein PSS9, wheels, 18 BBS RGT, P Zero 225-40 and 255-35 tyres. Front brakes are AMG 6 Pot and AMG 4 Pot, pagid pads.

Interior used Carlsson carbon fibre trims, Seats are blue black 2 tone. Guages such as boost pressure, oil pressure, oil temp are installed

C32KT has a max power of about 500hp. Stock C32AMG without speed limitor is already capable for a speed of 300km/h. With all the mods, the C37KT hits 180km/h in no time, the 200km/h to 300km/h range is what the C32KT built for. After 4 tests, C32KT 0-60mph in 5s, quarter mile, 13.1s, 0-200km.h in 10.5s, implying this is a car for the top end.

 

So, if by chance you can get the motor to 3000 RPM w/OUT the SC and hammer the throttle, the SC (or ECU) won't engage??

 

That is my understanding from everything that I have read on the SRT6, but there are more knowledgable people on this site then me that will probably chime in.

Cheers,
KrzyFast

 

Yup, once you guys get to experience the notorious IC pump failure, you will see it first hand.

Once your IC pump goes out, your IAT's are all over the place. When driving down the highway, the SC will cut out and not engage again until the car is under 3000 RPMs'

 

By my calculations: (based on the stock 74mm S/C Pulley)

Stock Crank Pulley : 74mm S/C - - Ratio = 2.0270
Engine RPM @ 6,000 - - S/C RPM = 12,405
Engine RPM @ 6,200 - - S/C RPM = 12,819 - Rev Limiter W/Tune
Engine RPM @ 7,000 - - S/C RPM = 14,473

178mm Crank Pulley : 74mm S/C - - Ratio = 2.4054
Engine RPM @ 6,000 - - S/C RPM = 14,432
Engine RPM @ 6,200 - - S/C RPM = 14,914 - Rev Limiter W/Tune
Engine RPM @ 7,000 - - S/C RPM = 16,838

181mm Crank Pulley : 74mm S/C - - Ratio = 2.4459
Engine RPM @ 6,000 - - S/C RPM = 14,676
Engine RPM @ 6,200 - - S/C RPM = 15,165 - Rev Limiter W/Tune
Engine RPM @ 7,000 - - S/C RPM = 17,122

185 Crank Pulley : 74mm S/C - - Ratio = 2.5000
Engine RPM @ 6,000 - - S/C RPM = 15,000
Engine RPM @ 6,200 - - S/C RPM = 15,500 - Rev Limiter W/Tune
Engine RPM @ 7,000 - - S/C RPM = 17,500

Using a Stock Crank Pulley, the S/C pulley would need to be reduced to:

63.6mm to equal the boost of 178mm Crank Pulley running @ 6,200 Engine RPM
62.5mm to equal the boost of 181mm Crank Pulley running @ 6,200 Engine RPM
61.2mm to equal the boost of 185mm Crank Pulley running @ 6,200 Engine RPM

If 20,700 is the max S/C RPM; and to be safe we decide to stay 10% under max - that's a target of 18,630 S/C RPM - - (when at 6,200 engine RPM)

Stock Crank Pulley would need a 50.9mm S/C Pulley
178mm Crank Pulley would need a 59.2mm S/C Pulley
181mm Crank Pulley would need a 60.2mm S/C Pulley
185mm Crank Pulley would need a 61.6mm S/C Pulley

Check my numbers to see if I missed something.... because I want to replace my 74mm S/C pulley with a 61.6mm S/C pulley (16.78% smaller)

 

Even if you feather the gas, at 3.000 RPM the supercharger engages electronically every time. You can feel a little jerk in first gear at 3.000 RPM when the supercharger engages. Of course, if you hammer the gas at 1.500 RPM the supercharger does engage at once at 1.500 RPM.

 

Brian,

would you say the article in my first post has wrong information?

There it is said, that the supercharger spins 3,3 times faster than the crank? This would mean that with the stock pulleys the supercharger spins already 20.526 RPM at redline 6.220 RPM ? This would mean there is no safety zone if you run a tuning pulley at redline ?

The SL55 supercharger runs over 23.000 RPM at redline. Maybe the smaller V6 supercharger can also handle higher RPM than 20.700 RPM
I hope so, because I'm also planning to put a larger pulley on my car.

Bruno

 

Besides reduced effeciencey, i wonder what the 20,700 limit of the SC really is?

Maybe the bearings?

 

With a ratio of 3.3 and a stock crank pulley of 155mm the S/C pulley would have to be 46.97mm. 155 / 3.3 = 46.97 or to find the ratio 155 / 46.97 = 3.3

Since I have both the factory crank pulley off the car and the surpintine belt off the stock supercharger pulley, and I can measure both, the article does not add up. Perhaps they got some numbers from the C32 and SL55 numbers crossed.

 

Guys, I don't know about not engaging above 3000 rpm, but I do know
that when the IC pump fails, the SC wont even engage from a dead stop
start. My experience was that once the IA temps went up nothing but
sitting and cooling would allow the SC to engage again. And then, only
for a very short time. Just my $0.02 worth.

Coyote (wondering where the other $0.98 from that dollar went.)

 

the supercharger engages/disengages via the ECU based on 3 factors:

1. Load (throttle input)= 40% or greater and the S/C engages(FYI, it doesn't take much to get to 40% load in these cars )

2. IAT's= 199 degrees or greater and the S/C will disengage (this is how you know the I/C pump is toast)

3. RPM= 3,000rpm (this condition is if the S/C is not already engaged at this point)

Brian, i will run the numbers and post back up, it is a little late and my brain is a little fuzzy right now...