For what it's worth, Consumer Reports is out with it's Best and Worst Reliability list. Japanese cars take most of the top honors with European and US at the bottom end. MB, BMW and the 300C did not fair well.

Check out the report: http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.as...c=LP%20pickups

 

No comments???

 

I've heard people say they're biased...but I don't know. I used to sell used cars, and Honda, Toyota, and Nissan by far are more reliable than most domestics. As far as European cars, Audi/VW suck (not necessarily engine + tranny, but electrical) as do Land Rover. At one point my dealership refused to put Discoveries on the lot, even though we sold them with ease. BMW and MB I've found are very solid + reliable, especially the 6-cylinders. The V8 BMW's are pretty damn expensive to maintain. Little things like check engine lights, power window motors, ect., go more on German than Japanese cars, but there's usually a lot more technology in these cars to go wrong.

The one thing I think they are biased on though are the little reviews. For example, they'll describe a Lexus LX470 as smooth ride, nice fit + finish, ect., then bash a large American SUV for having poor gas mileage and handling...no sh*t., it's a huge SUV!

 

I thought Buick ranked up there pretty well, as well as Mercury. I read in the paper a week or so ago that the Monte Carlo and Mariner ranked VERY high. I think alot of cars today are "reliable", some more than others but not like in the 80's, thats for sure!

 

Excellent synopsis SLAPS76, not just on the cars you mentioned, but on Consumers Reports too.
C.R. writers have always been "Masters" at stating the obvious. When it comes to rating cars, the only thing I pay any attention to in Consumer Reports is their Red & Black circles, which are simply a compilation of facts and records, which are pretty hard to dispute.
As AERO BLUE pointed out, I do think alot of American cars are making in-roads on the dependability issues, but have a ways to go to catch up with the Japanese.
I guess that's why that even though I really love our Crossfire, there's 2 Honda Civics, and a Miata in our garage. (Now, does that make me biased?) Probably.

 

The last American car I had was an '89 Voyager for the wife, after 90k it was out the door and replaced it with a Lexus . I didn't think I would ever buy American again, wait it's not really American its German. lol

 

Based on my experience, Consumer Reports trends have not applied to me. A lot of the vehicles in the study (that I have owned) are peppered with the dreaded black dots (as opposed to the red donuts that Civics get). And, most of the cars that I have owned have been fun to drive, dependable, and much loved. "Fun to Drive" is apparently not something that Consumer Reports cares to really evaluate, which is fine because it is subjective. But, I dare say that buying a car is not like buying a refrigerator. There are a lot of intangibles about cars that make them desirable, beautiful, longed for, etc. Some cars (old Jaguars, for example) are worth a few hiccups. But, even then, I have trouble understanding why certain cars do well. Consumer Reports polls basically their members, who are of the same mind in buying cars.

A few contradictions arise, such as one car doing better than its identical twin, which are built on the same line and use the same engine, etc. How do you explain those instances, which have arisen over the past few years? And, could it be that Buick or Toyota owners enjoy solid reliability because many are from a generation that is accustomed to heavily pampering cars to keep them in running order? My guess is that most Buicks/Lexus are also garaged, driven short distances, and kept reasonably clean since most of their owners are retired, fairly well off, etc. Finally, there is the story of my Dad's Accord, which was forgiven of all kinds of trim breakage, engine mount wear, door latches breaking, etc. My Dad considered it normal wear and tear, and defended the car's reliability as excellent. Meanwhile, his previous Olds was somehow deemed "unreliable" by him, even though it never broke down. In the end, people really believe what they want to believe. And, I assume that in part, Consumer Reports continually reinforces those beliefs.

 

I don't know about the Toyota/Lexus being rated high because people don't drive them much...ask anyone who's owned Toyotas. They're rock solid. You seriously can't compare any domestic brand to them for a car driven 100K+ miles. I'm talking overall, not on a case to case basis. We all know people who have had problems with Toyotas/Hondas, but had great luck with their Jaguar, or whatever.

 

Juddz, like Slaps76, I was in the car biz for awhile myself, and I base most of my opinions about any car in general on past experiences I've had over the years. Every manufacture has their own idiosyncrasies (where they have problems and another auto maker doesn't). But just as Slaps said, "overall" and in most cases, I really believe the Japanese auto industry is still ahead of the U.S. It doesn't make me happy to say that, but that has been my experience over the last 21 years. Has it stopped me from buying American? No.
But I have driven more than a 1/4 of a million miles in Hondas, and I've never had a mechanical break down, and I can't say that about any other make. My last Honda Civic, was a 93, I gave it to my grand niece because she wrecked her car. It now has 225K on it and shows no sign of quitting. Sure, the rear 1/4 panels have long since rusted away, but the car is still pulling 40 mpg on the highway. On the same token, a company I worked for 9 yrs. ago had 4 cyl. Chrysler mini vans with over 300K on them, all thanks to religious oil changes every 3k miles,and they were going strong too, so who's to say which is best.
I do agree with you too, about Consumer Reports. Not "all" their little red & black circles are indisputable. Some are indeed subjective.

 

Consumer Reports never really seemed to give accurate information.

 

Consumer Reports suck. They ruin people.

The other day I had a customer come in to buy a car and he couldn't understand why he couldn't buy this brand new car for what "his little magazine" said he should pay for it.

Consumer Reports claim they know what dealer invoice is on cars and he said he wouldn't or shouldn't have to pay any more than that. < complete a$$ nine idea!

The book was off by about 500 bucks and he thought I was lying to him, lol.

Take these books and shove them up your %$*, go by what YOU think and car buying is much more of a pleasant experience.

He is now ruined, and has a bad taste in his mouth about me and the whole brand.

 

I lost respect for consumer report a long time ago...
I don't pay much attention to it.

 

Edmunds seems to have fairly accurate invoice prices. But you can't expect anything but slow sellers to trade at invoice. I think it is better to visit one dealer and get a price, and then visit another across town and get a price on an identical car (same options and everything). Then, ask one guy to beat the other on the price. When he responds, notify his cross town rival and tell him that he was just beat. Keep it going, and eventually you'll get the car at market value (i.e. the lowest anyone is willing to sell the car). I did this over the phone for about a week when I bought my Crossfire coupe, and I got it new for $24,500. Sticker was just over $30K. But this is a Crossfire, which sits on the lot far longer than any dealer would prefer. It had yellow stickers on it, indicating it already sat on the lot far longer than it should have.

On, say, a new Solstice, you will not be getting it anywhere near invoice. That's not "unfair". Dealers are in business to make money, and they will do their best to perform at or above the market level. Besides, I enjoy the dealing side of car buying. It's fun, and if done right, everyone should feel good about the results (buyer and dealer included).

 

What a boring azz life it would be if everyone drove a "Consumer Report Recommended" blah blah bland car. I think many of us just lived through that era, 1980 to 2000. I'm glad to see the horsepower wars back, and some designers with a set to take a chance and be creative again.

 

Amen, Brother! Life's too short to to drive sensible transportation. . . most of the time, anyway. Once My kids get old enough so we can get rid of the car seats we're going to dump the minivan and replace it with a nice hemi-powered 300C.

 

I do the same thing. Dumped that mag a long time ago. They may be right on when it comes to washing machines but frankly automobiles they do not know. Will stick to my Motortrend for that. At least they aren't bias like CR.

 

All publications are biased. It's just that some of the better ones (Car & Driver, MT, Automobile, etc) are biased towards performance and driving pleasure. Don't believe it? Check out where BMW places, every time there is a comparo. But that's okay, because as an enthusiast, I share the same values. I, too am biased. And, like most matters of opinion, I simply know that I am right.

 

that's funny. the guy is "ruined" because he offered less than what the dealer was willing to accept?

 

No, the guy is "ruined" because that he doesn't realize that dealers are in the business to make money. What the little book says doesn't mean squat if the numbers don't match up to what the dealer paid for it. No dealer I know of is willing to sell something at a loss. That's not good business. If you really want to have a pleasant dealer experience, try this: Walk into the dealer and strike-up a conversation with the salesman. Let him (or her) know that you're serious about buying and you want to do the deal today. Then you say , "Look, I know you need to make a profit on this car, but I want a good deal too." Then ask them to pull the invoice and offer them invoice plus 3%. Seeing as most dealers make anywhere between 2% and 5% on a deal, chances are you'll be done with the paperwork and driving your new car home within an hour. The salesman will be freed-up to start working on another deal in a minimum amount of time and you have a new car. Everyone's happy.

Having worked at a dealer (motorcycles, not cars), I can say that nothing torques me off more than having some yahoo walk in off the street and expect me to sell him a bike at a loss because his little book says so. Not gonna happen.

 

Everyone realizes the dealer is in the business to make money, but the educated consumer is in the position to spend no more than necessary to obtain goods. If I offer the most I am willing to pay, and the dealer says it's not enough, I simply go home or visit another dealer. No haggling necessary. Very little time wasted. It's not my job to ensure that the salesman gets a nice pay check. If I make an offer and the sales manager approves, he is acknowledging that my offer is acceptable regardless of whether it is more or less than others are spending or whether the salesperson will be able to pay rent that week. If someone goes to the dealer equipped with pricing information and the dealer says he can't sell the car for that amount, but another dealer says he can, how is the consumer "ruined"? If the consumer is dealing with purely erroneous data and numerous dealers reject the offer, she will eventually recognize that her source of info is flawed and develop a new plan of action. But considering that 70% of people use the internet to research car prices, consumers must be getting some pretty reliable information.

As far as selling at a loss is concerned, most reputable businesses will lose money on a transaction at some time or another. For example, a dealer obtains a used vehicle that develops serious problems prior to being able to resell it. That vehicle could end up losing money at auction or the costs to repair could wipe out any profits.

How many Crossfire owners paid invoice plus 3%? In the past year probably most Crossfire sales have been below invoice. So the dealers are only able to profit selling Crossfires on holdbacks and factory to dealer incentives to move inventory. Try asking the dealer to reveal what the holdback and factory to dealer incentives are.

Polls have shown that other than politicians, the public perceives car salesmen to be the LEAST trustworthy of any occupation. So how could anyone expect you can just plop down in a chair at the first dealer you visit and drive away a car an hour later at a good price?