Header Discussion
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From: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Header Discussion
Ok, I re-read that thread. 1 5/8" is what they used. That is directly half way between port size and your primary size Les. Since they're shorty's I would think they need to be narrower if we lengthen them for long tube's. Maybe port size diameter, and 33-34" long, 2.5" collector, 2.5" true dual with x-pipe. Leaving in at most, secondary cat's, and muffler(s).
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From: IN
Re: Header Discussion
Well good luck with it...hopefully your builder can find the room to bring them off that head and make the type of bends in and around everything. The ones I have seen don't look much better than log style headers...which as I said just don't make enough to justify the trouble..or the $$$$. I hope you can pull off truly...
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From: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Header Discussion
I haven't looked at out cam profile so I'm assuming a lot. However, since I made no real power it's obvious to me we have no overlap to speak of. Impressive flames didn't shoot out of the open headers at the end of the dyno run. No overlap. Have a real detailed talk with the header designer, show him my photos and tell him my results is all I'm saying, before getting too far into this venture. Have him take a look at out cam profiles. If after all that he's sure, go for it and I'll rub a rabbits foot for success. All I want to know is how in the world are the E55 guys getting 70 hp from headers. (thats what sold me BTW)
Les
Les
http://www.marcusfitzhugh.com/CLK/DIY/camspecs.html
The E55 guys and the random NA V8's here and there making tons of power from this is why I am doing it as well. I forget the numbers but an R230 SL500 made 35-40whp throughout his entire curve and the company was saying the system was designed for torque! It was like 50-60 ft-lbs or something.
Well, I knew Les would chime in, since he has been there done that. Just so you know, about 45 min from me is a shop who have been building headers since the early 60's, from monster truck to some of the best drag racers in the world. Our problem is not just the fact we are not going to get a big return, but the room to even think long tubes. Their quote to me, and I love their work, was 2500 bucks. I would have done it for half that, but for that, I am doing a gear change in the rear end. As for shields, not even room to place your fingers in there let alone a wrench. So clearances are a huge issue, that is why I stated the heat issue as you are very close to everything trying to get down to where the collector will be. Once you are at the collector, then it is muffler shop time....no biggy there...
I will add this...in all my old days of muscle cars, headers were usually in the mix of mods we all did. They were always a pain from the burns we all had working around them, but they did add some HP....but 70 is ridiculous... Everyone car manufacturer in world would put headers on their performance cars if this were true. Think about that for a second. 20-30 is and always was max in our day...and I can't see that changing today with computers no less....
I will add this...in all my old days of muscle cars, headers were usually in the mix of mods we all did. They were always a pain from the burns we all had working around them, but they did add some HP....but 70 is ridiculous... Everyone car manufacturer in world would put headers on their performance cars if this were true. Think about that for a second. 20-30 is and always was max in our day...and I can't see that changing today with computers no less....
We will deffinately have some playing around to do with fitting but I am worried about heat too. S**t my underhood temps shot at minimum 50 degrees when I put the V8 in.
The 55K's really are making that though. Someone did some serious homework on it that is for sure.
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From: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Header Discussion
Well good luck with it...hopefully your builder can find the room to bring them off that head and make the type of bends in and around everything. The ones I have seen don't look much better than log style headers...which as I said just don't make enough to justify the trouble..or the $$$$. I hope you can pull off truly...
Thanks Doc, I guess we will see when we start working on them.
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From: Puerto Rico
Re: Header Discussion
C32AMG owners lie .... or have "other considerations involved". Perhaps I shouldn't say that ........ The space is tight. The steering box had to be removed. A few metal corners had to be "rounded". They touch the firewall slightly on the drivers side unless you take appropriate measures. Perhaps mine ARE a bad design. Try to find success stories and PM them. A couple past SRT-6 owners installed shortys and removed them. Find them and ask why. The shop that installed mine took a look at them and said "if these don't make power, nothing will". I think the shop was right. What I didn't do was retune after the headers. I retuned last week for a higher octane and raised the rev limiter so I can't credit the headers for the gains from the retune. But now you have my public service opinion, pictures etc. and I'll bow out. I'll even erase my posts if you want me to. My purpose was to inform, induce more thought before jumping, not detain you from going forward. All the best.
Les
Les
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From: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Header Discussion
C32AMG owners lie .... or have "other considerations involved". Perhaps I shouldn't say that ........ The space is tight. The steering box had to be removed. A few metal corners had to be "rounded". They touch the firewall slightly on the drivers side unless you take appropriate measures. Perhaps mine ARE a bad design. Try to find success stories and PM them. A couple past SRT-6 owners installed shortys and removed them. Find them and ask why. The shop that installed mine took a look at them and said "if these don't make power, nothing will". I think the shop was right. What I didn't do was retune after the headers. I retuned last week for a higher octane and raised the rev limiter so I can't credit the headers for the gains from the retune. But now you have my public service opinion, pictures etc. and I'll bow out. I'll even erase my posts if you want me to. My purpose was to inform, induce more thought before jumping, not detain you from going forward. All the best.
Les
Les
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From: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Header Discussion
I appreciate it, and I am trying to contribute what I can to everyone. Some may not wan't a V8, or racing seats so I need something else to contribute lol. I figured as far as performance what can I do... Then my welder said let's fit headers, so even if it doesn't work out ultimately at least I can say I tried. Plus we have a lot to do to the exhaust just to get it to V8 "factory" anyway and he doesn't charge for labor or material he can get a hold of, which is very impressive for what he claims legal lol.
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From: Casper WY
Re: Header Discussion
I have a set of shorties and can say for certain they do NOT make hp gains even with a retune......and I used open exhaust and then dyno'd with the stock exh minus the 1st cats and no gain was realized. The shorties are 1.5" primaries and collect into 2" to connect to the stock exh.
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From: Casper WY
Re: Header Discussion
They are ceramic coated which helps with the heat but not enough.......removed them because they rub everywhere and did not accomplish what I had hoped for so I couldn't even point to them to gain "cool factor" for having headers because they are virtually hidden from view in our cars.
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From: Puerto Rico
Re: Header Discussion
Mine are wrapped with DEI titanium header wrap. No heat problems. No gains without the cats is strange. I gained 16 hp removing the 4 cats and another 10 with the cutouts open. (stock manifolds, pre headers)
Les
Les
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From: Casper WY
Re: Header Discussion
Les,
I was just posting the exh that was used when the headers were dyno'd with the headers installed both open no exh and the stock minus the 1st set of cats........the stock log manifolds were on the car when I first removed the cats and yes the hp gain was about 8hp at the time but when installing the shorty headers the hp gain was nil with the same setup over the log headers. So the same 8hp was there for both the shorties and log exh manifolds with the cats gone and the 11hp gain with no exh was the same for the stock and short headers. Sorry for the confusion. I just expected SOME hp gain even 4 hp would have been nice.
Robert
I was just posting the exh that was used when the headers were dyno'd with the headers installed both open no exh and the stock minus the 1st set of cats........the stock log manifolds were on the car when I first removed the cats and yes the hp gain was about 8hp at the time but when installing the shorty headers the hp gain was nil with the same setup over the log headers. So the same 8hp was there for both the shorties and log exh manifolds with the cats gone and the 11hp gain with no exh was the same for the stock and short headers. Sorry for the confusion. I just expected SOME hp gain even 4 hp would have been nice.
Robert
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From: Puerto Rico
Re: Header Discussion
At the time (pre and post dynos) I was spraying water meth and we lost hp the first pulls with the headers. We changed when and how much was sprayed on the dyno until we managed 4 hp. I can't remember how many pulls we did but it was over 10.
Les
Les
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From: IN
Re: Header Discussion
Well, I know have discussed this with others, but not on here. My take is MB is always been about performance and reliability. I think their engineers, just like a lot of US engineers are building motors to perform with the exhaust manifolds of today. Meaning, some engines today look to have log style headers from the factory. I just saw the copo Camaro on a TV show being built and it had log style headers, not long tubes. I can see gains in the opening up exhaust though...as the copo really doesn't have a muffler...lol
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From: Casper WY
Re: Header Discussion
Dually noted Doc and I would say the MB engineers know their product better then we do so that is why we do not see huge gains over what they already have years in R&D. The best gains are just having cutouts and tune for that and due to the constraints in space maybe we are stuck unless someone wants to cut out the fender wells and cobble up a set of headers with that space.
I for 1 am not willing to cut up the wells just to gain 10 or 15 hp.......but given the engine with the s/c even with the cam specs we should be able to gain some hp and tq by freeing up the exhaust. As Les said removing the cats (all 4) does have advantages in hp. I'll bet it sounds real bad as well ......lol Les?
Of course here in CO we have emissions standards so cannot remove all 4 cats. Always something holding us back.
I for 1 am not willing to cut up the wells just to gain 10 or 15 hp.......but given the engine with the s/c even with the cam specs we should be able to gain some hp and tq by freeing up the exhaust. As Les said removing the cats (all 4) does have advantages in hp. I'll bet it sounds real bad as well ......lol Les?
Of course here in CO we have emissions standards so cannot remove all 4 cats. Always something holding us back.
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From: Jacksonville, FL
Re: Header Discussion
I'd like to throw my $.02 into the ring.
I'm thinking on the supercharged motors the gains would be minimal as you don't 'need' scavenging like you do on a N/A engine.
Keep in mind all of my boosted experience up until now is with turbos. With that, headers don't give you much of a benefit as you're trying to create a big pressure differential between the inlet of the turbine and the outlet. Now since you are pumping boost into the intake, overlap on the camshaft is kept to a minimum to avoid blowing the charge right out the exhaust port.
I'm thinking a supercharged engine is not much different. From what I have read, we have less overlap just like a turbo to keep from blowing the charge right out of the exhaust. Since we don't have the overlap, the scavenging effect of a header would not be as pronounced.
Just my thoughts...
Now, I'd keep the development going for the N/A engines, but us SRT guys just add boost!!!
I'm thinking on the supercharged motors the gains would be minimal as you don't 'need' scavenging like you do on a N/A engine.
Keep in mind all of my boosted experience up until now is with turbos. With that, headers don't give you much of a benefit as you're trying to create a big pressure differential between the inlet of the turbine and the outlet. Now since you are pumping boost into the intake, overlap on the camshaft is kept to a minimum to avoid blowing the charge right out the exhaust port.
I'm thinking a supercharged engine is not much different. From what I have read, we have less overlap just like a turbo to keep from blowing the charge right out of the exhaust. Since we don't have the overlap, the scavenging effect of a header would not be as pronounced.
Just my thoughts...
Now, I'd keep the development going for the N/A engines, but us SRT guys just add boost!!!
Last edited by Egodriver71; Oct 23, 2013 at 03:11 PM.
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From: Round Rock,TX
Re: Header Discussion
Cause this makes the most sense....
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From: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Header Discussion
They are ceramic coated which helps with the heat but not enough.......removed them because they rub everywhere and did not accomplish what I had hoped for so I couldn't even point to them to gain "cool factor" for having headers because they are virtually hidden from view in our cars.
Well, I know have discussed this with others, but not on here. My take is MB is always been about performance and reliability. I think their engineers, just like a lot of US engineers are building motors to perform with the exhaust manifolds of today. Meaning, some engines today look to have log style headers from the factory. I just saw the copo Camaro on a TV show being built and it had log style headers, not long tubes. I can see gains in the opening up exhaust though...as the copo really doesn't have a muffler...lol
Dually noted Doc and I would say the MB engineers know their product better then we do so that is why we do not see huge gains over what they already have years in R&D. The best gains are just having cutouts and tune for that and due to the constraints in space maybe we are stuck unless someone wants to cut out the fender wells and cobble up a set of headers with that space.
I for 1 am not willing to cut up the wells just to gain 10 or 15 hp.......but given the engine with the s/c even with the cam specs we should be able to gain some hp and tq by freeing up the exhaust. As Les said removing the cats (all 4) does have advantages in hp. I'll bet it sounds real bad as well ......lol Les?
Of course here in CO we have emissions standards so cannot remove all 4 cats. Always something holding us back.
I for 1 am not willing to cut up the wells just to gain 10 or 15 hp.......but given the engine with the s/c even with the cam specs we should be able to gain some hp and tq by freeing up the exhaust. As Les said removing the cats (all 4) does have advantages in hp. I'll bet it sounds real bad as well ......lol Les?
Of course here in CO we have emissions standards so cannot remove all 4 cats. Always something holding us back.
I'd like to throw my $.02 into the ring.
I'm thinking on the supercharged motors the gains would be minimal as you don't 'need' scavenging like you do on a N/A engine.
Keep in mind all of my boosted experience up until now is with turbos. With that, headers don't give you much of a benefit as you're trying to create a big pressure differential between the inlet of the turbine and the outlet. Now since you are pumping boost into the intake, overlap on the camshaft is kept to a minimum to avoid blowing the charge right out the exhaust port.
I'm thinking a supercharged engine is not much different. From what I have read, we have less overlap just like a turbo to keep from blowing the charge right out of the exhaust. Since we don't have the overlap, the scavenging effect of a header would not be as pronounced.
Just my thoughts...
Now, I'd keep the development going for the N/A engines, but us SRT guys just add boost!!!
I'm thinking on the supercharged motors the gains would be minimal as you don't 'need' scavenging like you do on a N/A engine.
Keep in mind all of my boosted experience up until now is with turbos. With that, headers don't give you much of a benefit as you're trying to create a big pressure differential between the inlet of the turbine and the outlet. Now since you are pumping boost into the intake, overlap on the camshaft is kept to a minimum to avoid blowing the charge right out the exhaust port.
I'm thinking a supercharged engine is not much different. From what I have read, we have less overlap just like a turbo to keep from blowing the charge right out of the exhaust. Since we don't have the overlap, the scavenging effect of a header would not be as pronounced.
Just my thoughts...
Now, I'd keep the development going for the N/A engines, but us SRT guys just add boost!!!
I'm sorry but I fail to see the issue in my statement. I would rather give a friend a set that I know through here and has been here the length of time I have, than someone who posts little and helps our community at the bare minimum...
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From: Casper WY
Re: Header Discussion
sh8erjosh,
I was not dishing you or discounting your efforts .......I was merely stating the frustration of what has come before and hoping this effort you have ventured upon turns out much better than past experiences. I for 1 would be ecstatic to see some real headers with proven gains in TQ and HP. Sorry if I came off as a doubting Thomas ......I really do hope you succeed and I will be happy to hear the updates here.
I was not dishing you or discounting your efforts .......I was merely stating the frustration of what has come before and hoping this effort you have ventured upon turns out much better than past experiences. I for 1 would be ecstatic to see some real headers with proven gains in TQ and HP. Sorry if I came off as a doubting Thomas ......I really do hope you succeed and I will be happy to hear the updates here.
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From: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Header Discussion
sh8erjosh,
I was not dishing you or discounting your efforts .......I was merely stating the frustration of what has come before and hoping this effort you have ventured upon turns out much better than past experiences. I for 1 would be ecstatic to see some real headers with proven gains in TQ and HP. Sorry if I came off as a doubting Thomas ......I really do hope you succeed and I will be happy to hear the updates here.
I was not dishing you or discounting your efforts .......I was merely stating the frustration of what has come before and hoping this effort you have ventured upon turns out much better than past experiences. I for 1 would be ecstatic to see some real headers with proven gains in TQ and HP. Sorry if I came off as a doubting Thomas ......I really do hope you succeed and I will be happy to hear the updates here.