Just had our monthly CEO/Managers meeting at my place of employment yesterday & some interesting things came up that I thought my fellow members might be interested in.
As some of you who have read & managed to stay awake through my ramblings might know, I work for a company in Cent. WI that owns & operates several C-stores, 22 in fact. We just recently unbranded 20 of them, all Citgo & a few Mobil's. The CEO's had had enough of Chavez & his big mouth & felt Citgo was a damaged brand. No sense losing business because some fool thinks he can use his oil money to buy off the world.
Anyways, during the discussion about what was happening in the gasoline biz the discussion came up about whether or not we should start selling Top Tier gas. I, of course, chimed in about my fellow Forum members expressing some interest in the Top Tier marketing & asked, again, just what was the difference between non-Top Tier gas & the former. Essentially, from the bosses mouth, Top Tier requires one more squirt of detergent in the mix, that's it folks. That's the difference. Once applied, any dealer can now market their gasoline using Top Tier as a selling point. It is not specific to brand (because it's all the same) but to whether or not the gasoline distributor applies the 'squirt'.
So we'll be marketing Top Tier gas.
In addition, I also discovered 2 other things: one, that all of our gas (except Premium) is now being mixed w/ Ethanol. Used to be mixed only when the price of Ethanol was cheaper than the gasoline. Recently, the price of Ethanol is cheap enough where it makes sense to mix it with everything. Two, many stations (including name brands) are now purchasing below grade octane gas & mixing it with enough Ethanol to boost the octane. This includes premium! Of course, there's no way of knowing just what station you pull into is doing this, I would doubt they are advertising this sneaky ploy.
Funny how integrity sometimes falls apart when there is money to be made!

 

Well I always buy Amoco Ultimate (Premium 93 octane) and usually from the same station 2 blocks from my house.
So far so good but this news is disturbing to say the least.
I also run the same gas in my Honda Valkyrie Motorcycle.

 

Well....
Kurts, as I said in a previous thread, the price of gasoline had to reach $ 4.00 a gallon to justify the ethanol production and subsequent gasoline dillution. Therefore , since Congress has been hell bent on forcing the production of otherwise economically unviable Ethanol, they have had no reason to interfere with the quantum price hikes of Oil.
Suddenly, they are heroes for having had the forsight to mandate Ethanol production. Nevermind what it has done to food prices, the ecology or the economy.
Sorry to rub in the burn but "we voted these guys in"

The oil companies have an obligation to make their money. They do.
Our elected reps have an obligation to protect our money. They don't.

Who is the failing entity here?
Kurts, don't feel guilty about what your company is doing, the government forced it on them.

roadster with a stick

 

Additionally, when a company claims TOP TIER compliance they must meet the standard in ALL grades of fuel, not just premium.

According to TOP TIER it appears to be more than just a "squirt" to comply:

Deposit Control Standards
The standards developed by the four automobile manufacturers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota) for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline are described below. This technical document describes the deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline at the retail level that minimizes deposits on fuel injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers. These standards comprise the requirements for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.
Standards
1.1 Retail Gasoline Performance Standards. The deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline conforming to section 1 of this document shall be met at the retail level in all grades of gasoline sold by a fuel company in all marketing areas of a selected nation. In addition, conformance to the standards shall mean gasoline sold in the selected nation shall not contain metallic additives, including methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT).
1.2 Deposit Control Additive Requirements. The deposit control additive used to meet the performance Standards described in 1.3 shall meet the substantially similar definition under Section 211(f) of the Clean Air Act. Also, the additive shall be certified to have met the minimum deposit control requirements established by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in 40 CFR Part 80. Lastly, the additive shall be registered with the EPA in accordance with 40 CFR Part 79.
1.3 Deposit Control Initial Performance Standards. Initial deposit control performance shall be demonstrated using the tests shown below.
1.3.1 Intake Valve Keep Clean Initial Performance Standard.
1.3.1.1 Test Method. Intake valve deposit (IVD) keep clean performance shall be demonstrated using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-lgnition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. Tests demonstrating base fuel minimum deposit level (1.3.1.2) and additive performance (1.3.1.3) shall be conducted using the same engine block and cylinder head. All results shall be derived from operationally valid tests in accordance with the test validation criteria of ASTM D 6201. IVD results shall be reported for individual valves and as an average of all valves.
1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

1. Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
2. Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
3. Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics.
4. Contain no less than 48 mg/kg sulfur. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
5. Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290°F.
6. Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.

1.3.1.3 Demonstration of Performance. The base fuel from 1.3.1.2 shall contain enough deposit control additive such the IVD is no more than 50 mg averaged over all intake valves. Results for individual valves and an average shall be reported. The unwashed gum level of the fuel containing deposit control additive shall be determined according to ASTM D 381 and reported.
1.3.2 Combustion Chamber Deposit Initial Performance Standard.
1.3.2.1 Test Method. Combustion chamber deposits (CCD) shall be collected and weighed along with IVD using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. ASTM D 6201 does not contain a procedure for collecting and measuring CCD. Adapting a scrape and weigh procedure developed by CARB is recommended (see referenced test method dated March 12, 1999). Results for individual cylinders and an average shall be reported.
1.3.2.2 Base Fuel. Combustion chamber deposits shall be measured for the base fuel from 1.3.1.2.
1.3.2.3 Demonstration of Performance. The base fuel from 1.3.1.2 treated with additive at the concentration meeting the standard found in 1.3.1.3 shall not result in more than 140% of the average CCD weight for the base fuel without additive.
1.3.3 Fuel Injector Fouling Initial Performance Standard.
1.3.3.1 Test Method. Fuel injector fouling shall be measured using the TOP TIER fuel injector fouling vehicle test available from GM. GM will run the test on a first-come-first-served basis and shall make the method available to those who wish to run the test on their own.
1.3.3.2 Base Fuel. Two options for base fuel are available:
1.3.3.2.1 Option 1. A full boiling range hydrocarbon gasoline or gasoline blending component, without oxygenates and without deposit control additives, that results in at least five inoperative injectors when tested by the method in 1.3.3.1.
1.3.3.2.2 Option 2. Federal emissions test gasoline specified in DFR 86.113-04, into which 4-methylbenzenethiol (WARNING: Flammable solid; irritant) has been blended at a concentration of 56 mg/L. The blended fuel must result in at least four inoperative injectors when tested by the method in 1.3.3.1. the Federal emissions gasoline, without deposit control additives, available from Haltermann Products (1201 South Sheldon Road, Channelview, TX 77530; tel.: 800-969-2542) has been found to be satisfactory.
1.3.3.3 Demonstration of Performance. A demonstration of injector fouling shall be done first. At least five out of six injectors (with Option 1) or at least four out of six injectors (with Option 2) shall be inoperative for the test to be valid. A demonstration of additive performance shall be done after the fouling tendency demonstration; no other test shall be conducted on the vehicle in the interim. A demonstration of additive performance shall be conducted using the same vehicle (including the fuel drain and flush procedures and installing new injectors) with the same batch of base fuel, but now containing the same amount of deposit control additive as in 1.3.1.3. A pass is defined as no more than one inoperative injector.
1.3.4 Determination of Deposit Control Additive Performance Concentration.
1.3.4.1 Methodology. The concentration of deposit control additive needed to meet the standards in 1.3.1.3 and 1.3.3.3 should be equivalent. However, if the concentration of deposit control additive in 1.3.3.3 is grater than in 1.3.1.3m the higher value shall be regarded as meeting both standards. Also, if the difference between the two concentrations is grater than 15%, 1.3.2.3 shall be repeated using the higher concentration.
1.3.5 Intake Valve Sticking Initial Performance Standard.
1.3.5.1 Test Method. Intake valve sticking tendency shall be determined using either the 1.9 L Volkswagen engine (Wasserboxer according to CEC F-16-T-96) or the 5.0 L 1990-95 General Motors V-8 engine (SWRI IVS test). Two options are available for demonstrating intake valve sticking tendency.
1.3.5.2 Option 1. The valve-sticking tendency of the test fuel by itself will not have to be demonstrated prior to testing the candidate additive. The following shall be required of all tests:

1. Test fuel shall be either the same as in 1.3.1.2 or CEC valve sticking reference fuel.
2. Concentration of deposit control additive in the test fuel shall be at least twice the amount determined in 1.3.4.1.
3. Test temperature shall be -20°C.
4. Three 16-hr cold soak cycles, each followed by a compression pressure check, shall constitute a complete test.

1.3.5.2.1 Demonstration of Performance. A pass shall result in no stuck valves during any of the three cold starts. A stuck valve is defined as one in which the cylinder pressure is less than 80% of the normal average cylinder compression pressure.
1.3.5.3 Option 2. The valve-sticking tendency of the test fuel together with an additive known to cause valve sticking shall be demonstrated prior to testing the candidate additive. The following shall be required of all tests:

1. Test fuel shall be either the same as in 1.3.1.2 or CEC valve sticking test reference fuel.
2. An additive known to cause valve sticking shall be selected, and, when blended into test fuel, shall demonstrate valve sticking tendency as follows: (a) for the Volkswagen engine, at least two valves shall be stuck; (b) for the GM engine, at least three valves shall be stuck.
3. Test demonstrating performance of the candidate additive shall be conducted at a concentration that is at least three times the amount determined in 1.3.4.1.
4. Test temperature shall be -20°C.
5. One 16-hr cold soak cycle followed by a compression pressure check shall constitute a complete test.

1.3.5.3.1 Demonstration of Performance. A pass shall result in no stuck valves during the cold start. A stuck valve is defined as one in which cylinder compression is less than 80% of the normal average cylinder compression pressure.

 

Wow, I can't believe how detailed this information is! I've been using mostly Citgo with Chevron being my second chioce. The reasoning behind it is a friend of mine tested the different stations with his car and computer to find out that Citgo gas is the #1 antiknock out there, and Chevron a close second. Of course this was before the ethanol crap made it's way into the fuels. So not sure how that may affect the cars now when it comes to knocking.

 

Boy, did he blow you off?!?!?!?! Way over simplified......or else he didn't want to show his ignorance. I'm sorry, but there is way more to it than that.

Maybe you should print post #4 and take it to him.

 

Aside from the moral issues here, I could go on for hours about the technical problems about trying to do this.

 

Mornin'!

Several things: Franc, guilty? no simply because EVERYONE else is doing it too. In fact, I'm just happy we've decided not to mix anything with our premium & have enough integrity as a company not to buy below grade octane gas, pump it full of steroids & call it normal.
Top Tier - since all the gas you buy is darn near the same I know for a fact that the gas we purchase from our distributor in Chicago already meets those standards though what it is missing is the 'squirt'. That's what I meant by the "only difference". Got to admit, though, the standards do look impressive! Thanks 70GT6 !!
This may not be true in other parts of the country, guys, but at least up here in N.E. & Cent. WI ALL of our gas comes up to the tanks via one pipeline out of Chicago. Companies buy volume on the line through some bizarre allocation method I don't claim to understand. The mixing of the additives, depending on what they may be, is done "locally" as is the Ethanol injection since, once again, the supply is local. Needless to say, the below grade buyers aren't Top Tier sellers so the whole Top Tier idea isn't a bad one.
The only issue I'd would see with Top Tier marketing is: who tests the gas for the standards it has to meet? I'm assuming some nefarious company could market their gas that way, not meet the standards & who's to know? Hmmmm, another question to ask the bosses!
By the way, Danimal, the bosses are good guys. I could certainly sit down with any of them & talk gas all I wanted to. We were in a meeting, with a schedule, so I didn't want the whole thing to drag out endlessly just 'cause I wanted to talk Top Tier or Ethanol. The meetings can be droll enough, heck, you guys have been there, you know what I mean! They've been in the oil/gas biz for 3 generations so they know their stuff. I just thought it would be interesting to learn what Top Tier is & isn't plus let you guys know what's happening with this below grade octane crap.
The latter truly pisses me off simply because there's no way of knowing this when you gas up.

 

Here is another interesting Top Tier "requirement"
For a company to claim Top Tier compliance, all retail outlets selling the gasoline brand must be compliant. So if say SHELL is claiming compliance all SHELL stations nationwide must be compliant. Each store or region can not independantly choose to be Top Tier or not.

Here are the current retailers that are listed with Top Tier as compliant:
QuikTrip
Chevron
Conoco
Phillips
76
Shell
Entec Stations
MFA Oil Company
Kwik Trip/Kwik Star
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
Chevron-Canada
Aloha Petroleum
Tri-Par Oil Company
Shell-Canada
Texaco
Petro-Canada
Sunoco-Canada

 

Kurts, I've noticed that most of the stations here in NE FL & SE GA have started putting stickers on their pumps stating that "Ethanol May Be Added" or "May Contain Up To 10% Ethanol".....most notably at the Shell and Chevron stations. I have looked for them on the Texaco pumps but haven't found any as of yet....though it doesn't mean that they don't. I agree that it would be nice to know who does and who doesn't, but..........

Those are the only 3 brands that I frequent as they are the only top tier companies in my area.

 

As far as i know, the Feds require notification by the stations if they are using blended gas. Of course, the "may be" is the kicker since you don't know if they're blending or not. Since Ethanol production is local it all depends on who might be supplying 'your' stations & whether or not the locally produced Ethanol is less expensive than the gas they're buying. If it is, then you have Ethanol in your gas!
Oh, & like 70GT6's stats show above, 10% is the max they can add for Top Tier. I think it's the max you can add to any gas, but I can't be sure.

 

other than E85 of course...but yes, for 'normal' gasoline 10% is the maximum allowable limit for ethanol blended into gasoline.

 

why do I need that extra squirt of detergent from top tier fuel, when they already mixing 10% ethenol, which has the benefits of a detergent. makes no sense. heck don't use any detergents and save us the cost of paying for it.

 

Actually, I don't think it costs any more for the squirt or, at least, the cost isn't passed on to the consumer. To remain competitive with the station down the block the prices will remain pretty much the same.
But you're right, in a manner, Max. It only becomes useful when the gas isn't being blended.
I don't see truly unblended gas (meaning Ethanol blended) coming back for awhile. The price of Ethanol is way low compared to gas prices so I'm sure the blending will continue.

 

Is 10% low enough not to cause problems with our cars?

 

I wouldn't think so but it does reduce your mileage.
Funny, you'd think the price of gas would come down when it's blended but it never does. That's the one question I'll have for my bosses when I can corner them: if we blend (& we are today) then why don't we drop the price?

 

And here's one more bit to p*ss you off.
The Europeans have found a way to let US taxpayers subsidize their fuel costs. Using, you guessed it, a government mandated and subsidized biofuel program.
Way to go Congress!

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,366601,00.html

Keep in mind, they have a higher percentage of diesel cars than we do.

Roadster with a stick

 

Interesting......so we pay to subsidize 20000 jobs, huh?
Right .
How, pray tell, does this help the average farmer & I'm not talking about the mega-farm, the guy with a gazillion acres under production & who knows how to work the system.