Question seemed pretty clear to me..

 

Has anyone actually gone online and looked at the Fiat cars? They don’t make anything that I want to see in my driveway. I suppose they would be good city cars for people that actually don’t go any place but they aren’t made for the open roads of America. There are no cars available for people who actually enjoy driving a car.
Now Alfa Romero does have a nice spider. Both in coupe and roadster but those little shoe boxes from Fiat will never save Chrysler. Fiat will close all production plants in America. They will outsource everything except assembly plants. I know, I used to work for them until them closed my plant. They will insist their vendors give them the cheapest parts they can supply and every year they will expect them to lower the price. The best we can hope for is Jeep and Dodge, who actually have the only cars most people want to buy, can get away and save what is left of MOPAR.

 

I think Franc meant to address it to apkano and not me.


And yes Franc, it will always be Bush's fault.

 

Franc did, sorry. And he is accepting that it will always be Bush's fault.


roadster with a stick

 

The hedge funds currently holding senior bonds can still trip this deal up.

FWIW, if Fiat could bring us a reload of this car, they would have at least one buyer (no Bangle haters, pls.) Or at least Italianize the Firepower concept car. And the 500 Abarth could be a Mini-battler if they keep the price down and the HP high.

What Fiat brings to the table is their modern tooling and production methods ... and some parts and billions in capital they got from GM :snark:

But really, can any of Fiat's offerings be worse than the current Sebring sedan? (although I would like to try to adapt the first year Sebring's AWD system to a Crossfire.) Or tackier than the Caliber?

As for who's to blame in this mess, all I can do is take a line from the Rolling Stones' "Synpathy for the Devil"

I shouted out,/Who killed the Kennedys?/When after all/It was you and me

 

Without more research, I'd say that was almost prophetic!

Get it?

 

It was a total of 5 STUBBORN hedge funds that caused the bankruptcy, and Obama was correct to call them speculators.

Also Fiat does make great small cars, which Chrysler lacks. But don't even dream that Fiat could make anything like the firepower. Only Chrysler could make a car like that. Fiat on the other hand could probabaly produce the chassis for a Dodge Demon like car, but only Chrysler would be able to design the innovative styling / concept. Fiat is not able to produce a large car what-so-ever, just like Chrysler has trouble making small cars! So Fiat is not the end-all answer to Chryslers problems. They are a solution to more fuel efficient vehicles, and compact cars.

Also the sebring / Avenger is not a bad car at all. And yes Fiat as well as other companies can and do produce cars that are not up to the sebring / avenger standars. In fact, you won't even find a reasonably priced Fiat that is midsized, and when you go up the the larger Alfa Romero cars, they will be much more expensive than the sebring / avenger. So you're comparing apples to oranges. Also if the Sebring / Avenger is so bad then why has the Dodge Journey gotten such great reviews??? The journey is on the same exact chassis, and its rated better than the Ford Edge, and the Journey has best in class mileage. So until you've actually driven the sebring don't knock the car. Infact I challenge anyone to find a better hard top convertible for a batter price than the sebring, by any manufactuer.

Lastly, the 1st generation sebrings 4WD would never be fitted to a crossfire. The avenger is based on a mitsubhishi chassis, while the Crossfire is an older daimler slk chassis, and the Caliber offers its own 4wd chassis, that you will find on the Jeep patroit.

 

Each brings to the table a piece the other lacks. Fiat also has recent experience coming back from the brink.

Let's keep our fingers crossed that the corporate bureaucracy in Turin isn't as bad as Stuttgart.

The Avenger has been quite popular overseas at least.I never got into it because of its resemblance to the Charger.

Sorry on the Sebring I should have said first year of this generation. Thought the Borg Warner system might fit.

 

... and all along the yellow brick road to fascism.

Who cares about that man behind the curtain, as long as the UAW has something at all to produce and someone at all that might buy it.

"The president is going to lead us out of this recovery."

Dan Quayle

 

Union only gets one seat on the board. Pension fund will have to sell new Chrysler-Fiat stock ASAP to cover outstanding liabilities.

It's the worst deal possible except for all the others ... like Chapter 7.

FWIW "Fascism" sounds like such a more interesting straw man than "secular humanism" for true culture vultures, but those discussions go on the Politics board.

 

That's a beaut, Jesus.

I've heard our New King called a lot of things, but never a secular humanist. Alas, I do suppose we are tossing a lot of old labels nowadays ...

And BTW, this has much more to do with politics than it does business, so perhaps the entire conversation should be moved over there.

 

The "king" meme says a lot more about the people who use it than the people against whom it is used.

BTW I never referred to the prez as a secular humanist, fascist or straw man. I was simply attacking ideas some hold dear, not people.

 

Cheap(er) Italian design and business execs may drive outsourcing to new heights, one automotive writer posits.

More here.

An Euro import that's cheaper than home-grown? Sad but true.

 

there are long-standing and respected bankruptcy laws in the US. senior debt holders get paid back before suboordinate debt holders. the administration was overstepping its bounds by trying to force acceptance of a deal on those senior debt holders. the only reason the 4 biggest holders gave in is because they are at the mercy of the Gov't for previously taking TARP money.

obama was correct in calling the hold-outs speculators. but it doesn't matter since he has alreadly condoned such behavior. it's probable these funds hold credit default swaps that will pay back all the money they loaned and maybe more. why should they accept 29 cents on the dollar? keep in mind that the CEO of goldman sachs said that he was adequately hedged against an AIG failure (CDSs, stock short positions, etc.). but then AIG took $12.9B in taxpayer money and handed it directly to goldman even though they were speculating on AIG's failure. wake up folks!

 

Get this, out of the 6.9 billion owed to banks, the 5 to 9 STUPPID speculative hedge funds that made Chrysler file..chapter11......were only owed>>>>>>>>>>> 245 million!!!! What a bunch of JERKS. Oppenheimer funds was 1 of them!!

The rest of the banks agreed to work with Chrysler!!For the other 6.7 billion.

 

At one point, these Bad Guys?!?! agreed but the White House said "sorry nevermind." While I don't know the details, (nobody actually does but those close in and they won't talk) the whole gambit is a class warfare play.


I suggest we don't blindly fall for it.

Bankruptcy is what should have been done last fall. But the Unions would lose out. Barry has structured this so the Unions get paid back for supporting him. It's not evil conspiracy stuff, just every day politics. No More No Less.

That said, it is still power play politics and should be recognized as such.

Chrysler does know how to make small cars? I don't mean to discount Antonio311, but if I recall didn't Chrysler save itself with , what was that thing?....the "K" car.

Small, affordble gas miserly yet comfortable and useful for American drivers.

I had several of them and though many deride them, the "K" car saved the company along with that other model we often tease, the Minivan.


As to Fiat producing a second generation Chrysler Crossfire, don't hold your breath. With DC placing a firm grip on the company such daliances are unlikely. We will sooner see Eric Stoddard put one out from his musings on this Forum than the FiatChryslerObama motor car company.

I suggest, the best bet politicaly and economicaly would be to use the Government's ability to just print money and have the Car Czar insist on moving forward with the electric models we heard so much about last fall. If they truely have the product, close to ripe, then they should step out and do it. It would command the market and being first is a Chrysler trait not found often at GM.

If Americans truly want these products, as the current administration insists, then prove it the old fashion way.


PUT IT ON THE MARKET AND SEE.

Barry, I double dog dare ya'


franc

 

Fact check

First: Sorry, no car czar ... now or in the future.

Second: the "union's" share of the "proceeds" will go to the trust funds to cover the liabilities Chrysler (not "Barry") incurred when they terminated the company pension plan. If the trust funds fail, then it would fall to Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation to bail the trust funds out by law. They likely wouldn't be able to do it and would in turn require a "bailout" which would cost taxpayers (you and me) a lot more.

Third: Despite protests to the contrary, Fiat execs have recent experience in turning around moribund automobile companies and are cheaper than their American counterparts.

Fourth: The 500 Abarth slots nicely between the Yaris and the BMW Mini in the expanding small car market.

Fifth: While Chrysler has completed most of the development work on the follow-on cars, they still need modern tooling and production methods to make a go of it. Fiat's no Daimler, but if they can get competitive cars built in banana republics, they can get it done here. And even THEY know a different product mix is required to succeed in North America.

 

This shot-gun wedding of Chrysler to Fiat is a real hoot. What makes it even hootier are the ideological terms of the Chapter 11 bankruptcy that our New King has coerced into play. Just another principal of contract law overtly abrogated wherein the poor oppressed union laborers can somehow cut into the line of a structured debt payout. Gotta' lift 'em up. Gotta' punish those greedy capitalists. Gotta' chubby up that voter base.

Sadly, the spawn of this wedding, NewCo Whatever, will be too mired in a political decision-making process to ever agree on a 'concept', let alone roll out a product. There are very few industries that can function under 'management by consensus' ... car makin' ain't one of 'em.

General Motors (GMAC) is simply too deep on debt to ever again see daylight, so it would appear that Ford is the only domestic car-maker positioned to actually sell a decent car when the average schmuck is once again inclined to go out and actually buy one. And Ol' Henry is laying quietly and smugly in his grave, watching this whole thing unfold (unravel?) on cable TeeVee.

 

It is not the first time ol Ford told the guvment lackeys to put it where there ain''t no sunshine and won.

nice post there magee


franc

 

There is a car Czar dude. You just didn't get the point.

And as President, it appears the car Czar can rearrange the bankruptcy laws. The UAW gets a seat on the board? They had one before. The 55% ownership does fund the pensions but it is shareholder and bondholder assets he took to redistribute. Usually, that is left up to the Bankruptcy judge after hearing from each level of creditors.

I've been a first tier creditor and a second tier creditor. Also been and unsecured creditor. The judge decides all. Generally any wages owed for work done gets paidfirst. Then the secure lenders get theirs. Suppiers are next and unsecured get anything left. I'm not sure where pensions fall in these cracks. Perhaps a lawyer is amoungst us and can shed a light.

It will be interesting to see how this judge accepts instructions from the White House. If he rubber stamps the actions of the President, I imagine it would be considered a legal move. Let us see.

As to the modern manufacturing, I'm hearing a different story from the Chrysler workers I know. Perhaps that 2 year concept to showroom turnaround thing Lee Iacocca started was just a sound stage smoke and mirror thing.

Chrysler's biggest problem as of late was more than money issues. It hasn't had a car guy running it for some time. And, it shows.

Fiat has got to be licking their lips over the spoils available to them here or they wouldn't put up with the shenanigans going on or the extortion from the White House. You are right there JC, They may surprise us.

roadster with a stick