nate_man, great avatar!

(Wonder if I can re-do it in red?)

 

I'm glad you finally got a chance to take a peek at it Franc. Even happier that it was able to have some sort of inspirational significance. Thanks for being one of several folks on here that embrace this. Means a lot

 

No waylander, thank YOU for taking the time to read and chime in.

Ignorant question for ya -- is this type of writing generally frowned upon in the UK? Like, is the animosity directed more towards Christianity or just religion in general?

 

Well, Waylander, in this particular thread I didn't feel it necessary to criticize John or our other members. I'll save that for other threads .
And ridicule.........you wouldn't catch me ridiculing anyone. I can only live my life the way I feel it ought to be lived & let others live theirs the same way.
Don't get me wrong: personally I feel that religion & belief in something no one can prove is an enormous waste of human talent & time. In fact, I believe that religion is dangerous: just because the prevailing religion of this country today is rather peaceful doesn't let some other ones, like Islam, off the hook. The fact that even broaching this subject flies in the face of political correctness irritates me to no end! But this has been covered shortly in other threads like this one:

https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...e-general.html

Besides, if John was some raving religious extremist who constantly got in everyone's face about his particular form of delusion I wouldn't be so inclined to let his comments go.
But he's not. He bravely comes out here & places his feelings in the vast ether of the internet. That takes a little courage. Who knows, someday when I'm feeling especially capable of expressing my dismay with religion I may throw something out here that will raise hackles.
Then again, I think I already have in other threads!

And Franc, if you don't mind me jumping in here & attempting to answer the question you posed to Fastforfun (& I do not mean to answer for him!):
does it need to serve a purpose? Can a life not feel fulfilled without the inclusion of a diety of some sorts?
I can tell you that I feel perfectly fulfilled when I see my children carrying on with their young lives. I am completely at ease knowing that I will live on within them. I am perfectly content knowing that, however long I may live, that I've tried to make the people around me as happy or comfortable as I am able. Frankly, I think that is man's most noblest goal; not to live your life because of some reward promised you, but to try to your best ability to provide those you love with happiness. I do not need a god to do so.

It's the heathen in me !

 

Kurts, my good friend. You explained very well, the perspective of a noble albeit godless, life. I cannot fault it. Enjoy your peace when it comes my friend. By the life you propose, you will have earned it.

Me, I have other plans after my brow has sweated.

It's the Christian in me.

franc

 

I think we have a few creationists here, so lets hear from them.
Ooops sorry, maybe I should start a new thread in the joke section.

 

I assume you're trying to be funny but it just comes across as disrespectful.

roadster with a stick

 

really it's kinda hard to say - I'd guess that most of the fora/forums I frequent are not especially well disposed towards religion (also a sci-fi/fantasy geek) so maybe I do see a little more 'anti' feeling than might be the norm in this country... interestingly however it does strike me that more negatives are leveled at Christianity and Islam than any other religion and it does appear to me that the 'leaders' of this land are hell bent on dismantling as much of the Christian roots of the UK as they can (though to be fair I would think that being Christian)

 

Very interesting. No worries, it's happening here as well so you're not alone. This, too is prophesied in the Bible. We know the birthing pains are coming. As you know, it has not always been this way but there is an increasing amount of push-back from the government, media, and society in general. Christianity brings up structure and rules as God ordained. A society of spiritual pluralism and moral relativism doesn't embrace rules. From initial glance, most people believe that the rules bring about a decrease in happiness and a fleecing of liberties. I'm quickly learning just the opposite; that when I align my life with God's purposes, I experience much MORE joy than I do when I simply serve myself and abandon scripture and the structure spoken of within it.

Thank you for your input and for educating me.

 

It is two pics one with the top up and down merged into one. They are stock pics. It may be easier to do it with your own pics.

Thnx

 

Never assume anything, sarcasm would be more like it.

 

You can put a turd in a Snickers wrapper, but it won't change the taste. Or the substance. Point being, it was still a slap in the face. No matter, I'll still be a class act in your threads.

Be well,

 

My use of "assume" was an attempt to be polite. Since you put it that way...
This has been, up to now, a fairly respectful exchange of ideas an comments.

You sir, are a Putz.


Sorry John, but I ran out of cheeks with this guy a long time ago.

Franc

 

I may have expected this more from a youngster, but as one with a few more years under their belt I would have thought that you would be more aware of your mortality and the reality of what life is all about become a little more clear.

We have two choices in life, to allow the truth to mould and shape us for the better or to harden against it and try and refute it. Regardless we all know no matter what our beliefs that there is something bigger and greater than ourselves.[/font]

Lay down on the ground at night and simply look up the vastness of space compels us to know that we are very, very tiny, in a solar system that has a star (the sun) that is over 4 quadrillion times smaller than that largest star known (Canis Majoris), and yet the beginning of each of us are two microscopic cells that unite to form the most complex being on the planet! A process of endless time and originating from nothing? What faith you have... ...or do you....

Yeah, a joke, one that baffles the mind, more like a riddle!

Respectfully,

Nate

 

Very good illustration, Nate. It all comes down to faith. And the question is where to apply that faith. I remember many years ago in Philosophy class in college the prof asking the question, what do you know for sure? This was back in the 70s when we were still in the midst of a great cultural upheaval, the Viet Nam war had not yet ended. He was introducing the concept that some believe there is no absolute truth and that we can't know anything for sure but what we perceive as truth is constantly changing. How do I know Nate, John, Franc and the others really exist or maybe they are all alter egos of someone playing games with us. Maybe Onehunred80 doesn't really exist, but is merely someone made up by Franc for his amusement, to play games with us. Or, maybe we all really do exist and are exactly who we are as portrayed on this and other forums. What do you want to believe?

Yes, there are Creationists on this forum. But, there are also many positions relative to metaphysics. Did God create everything? Did He just create a few things and step back and let things evolve from there? Is all of this just the result of random events? The questions can go on.

Were any of us here to witness the beginnings? Has science proven indisputably what caused all this to appear and happen? Where did that big bang originate? What triggered it?

Mind boggling. We all must have faith in something or just not care. Is your faith in a God who is the creator and sustainer of all, or is it in an imperfect science?

 

All good points Ravery thanks for keeping us thinking...

What do we really know? This question is the bane of our existence to a great degree.

I too remember these discussions in philosophy class in college as well on what is truth, reality, life. And to a great degree when self is set aside (our opinions, goals, desires etc.) the answers become clearer. Thinking about a child that lives in deepest poverty with a very sad life, then ask the question does he/she really exist? Are the tears real? Do they really hurt, hunger, feel? It then becomes more clear that there are many initiatives to translate reality into an abstraction which helps to alleviate many of our selfish goals to have a defined answer to things that we cannot prove and also eliminate any accountability for our actions and allow us to do what we feel is best for what is our reality. Yes this philosophical dialogue definitely creates a challenge...

Christianity is both misunderstood and grossly misrepresented in society today by both Christians and non Christians alike and this is the greatest travesty of all because at the heart of all of our ills is selfishness and that ill is what has clearly led to the state of our world today!

Life, children, pleasure, happiness, sickness and death have all contributed a great deal to what I know today as reality and the constant challenge of not letting Nate rule is the only thing that creates distortion in that perception of reality. I have no need to convince others to think like me nor do I need to remain silent when it appears as if we are going down an unhealthy path.

There are some things that are pretty clear, no air we die or at least cease to exist as we know it today, no food we shrivel up and eventually do the same, no love and we isolate and protect ourselves, no gas and our xfires don’t run LOL!

 

I believe that no super being made the universe, it was always there in one form or another and continues to evolve. In the infinity of time everything can happen and will happen. One event was the human race happened along and in due time it will go.
People have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that something exists that was not made by someone or something. To explain that to themselves they are told to believe in a supreme being rather than accept the fact that it exists just because it does. I think that to believe in something like this we have to cast all common sense to the wind and do as the religious leaders say have faith.
Religion is power; this power is held by a few for their own use, to keep the masses in place and subservient to some god.
Ask yourself a simple question, which length of time will be the longest, the time before you were born or the time after you die? If the universe was created then the time after death will be the longest, they always speak of an eternity after death. Surely we have an eternity before and after life, eternity does not start nor does it end.
Amen, and pass the plate.

 

You, um, want to tell us just how literally you wish us to take that remark?

Quote:

Religion is power; this power is held by a few for their own use, to keep the masses in place and subservient to some god.

Yea, we see that in the environmentalist movement. Fear works as well today as it did in times of old, doesn't it?

Quote:

Ask yourself a simple question, which length of time will be the longest, the time before you were born or the time after you die? If the universe was created then the time after death will be the longest, they always speak of an eternity after death. Surely we have an eternity before and after life, eternity does not start nor does it end.

You started off with a profound question, but then you fizzled!

 

I respect your opinion even though I may completely disagree, but just remember that your belief supports a line of thinking that you are just as right as I am. Can that really be? Maybe that comes back to my point in my original thread.....


Religion has jaded oh soo many. IT has been a tool to control, manipulate and support the selfish end of mankind. But as I also said in my thread above Christianity been highly misappropriated to the world.

Oh and for the simple question "Ask yourself a simple question, which length of time will be the longest, the time before you were born or the time after you die?"
simple answer it depends on whether you realize that time and space were also created...

Oh and you make very big assumptions if you believe that eternity does not start or end. We can create words that support any of our manmade goals. Funny thing is that we can never prove eternity at least for now because you and I are finite little beings. So all we know is a beginning and an end so maybe just maybe there was a beginning which has no end!

Oh and on the common sense and the wind comment: I think that to believe in something like this we have to cast all common sense to the wind and do as the religious leaders say have faith.
We should probably consider a famous line from the bible and ponder this "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going." not even our high paid meteorologists can predict this. If only we did have some common sense we probably would be less blown by every wind of doctrine that we hear.

Respectfully,

Plate passed...

 

Time before or after we die ultimately will be the same, if we believe in an eternal God that always existed and always will.

Onehundred80, you say people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that something exists that was not made by something or somebody else. No, it seems those of us posting on this thread believe exactly that, and that something that exists and has always existed is what we call God.

When thinking of eternity, it is relatively easy to think of eternity in the future, we just never cease to exist. But, I admit, thinking of eternity past wraps my brain in knots.

What it comes down to is defining time. Does God exist with the same time constraints we have?

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you on one point, so often religion has been perverted and used for power rather than what God intended it to be.

And Onehundred80, it sounds very much like your view of life is based on faith.