Ok guys/gals....so I thought I would mix it up abit with a guns thread being that I have recently had an high interest in Assault Rifles particulary the M4 Carbine. I currently own and carry a Ruger P345 which I target shoot often so I would be using as recreational target power shooting of course. After seeing a few guys having a ( I guess shoot-off competition)Ive been hooked. They had some wicked looked Carbines. I also like the ACR and AR-15.......soooo I would just like to know what are some good weapons and your experiences of various weapons. Oh yeah I was eyeballing a .22 Assault Carbine but would like the .223 cal. I suspect the price in rounds would differ.... below is what I am looking to get.....begin discussion please.

BushmasterŽ MOE M4-Type Carbine

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Product Description:

This top quality Bushmaster Carbine brings reliable Bushmaster performance with exceptional ergonomics through Magpul Original Equipment. Key enhancements include the MOE collapsible stock, pistol grip, polymer hand guard, MBUS rear flip sight and PMAG. The premium 16" M4 Profile Barrel is chrome lined in both Bore and Chamber to provide Bushmaster accuracy, durability and maintenance ease.

• 5.56mm / .223 Rem.
• 16” M4 Profile Barrel with A2 Birdcage Flash Hider
• Receiver Length Picatinny Optics Rail with Magpul MBUS Rear Flip Sight
• Magpul MOE Polymer Hand Guard Accepts MOE Rail Inserts (not included)
• Magpul MOE Adjustable Buttstock with Strong A-frame Design and Rubber Buttplate
• Magpul MOE Pistol Grip Accepts MIAD Storage Cores (not included); MOE enhanced trigger guards
• Shipped in a Lockable Hard Case with Operator’s Safety Manual, 30 Round Black PMAG, Yellow Safety Block and Black Web Sling
• One Year Bushmaster Warranty
• Available with Black, Flat Dark Earth or Foliage Green Furniture

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Sugg. Retail Price:$1295.00Part No:(Black)
BCWA3F 16M4 MOE

(Flat Dark Earth)
BCWA3F 16M4 MOED

(Foliage Green)
BCWA3F 16M4 MOEG Features & Specifications
[Metric in brackets]Caliber:5.56mm / .223 Rem. Magazine Capacity:30 RoundsOverall Length:35.5" [90.17 cm]Barrel Length:16" [40.64 cm]Rifling:1 turn in 9" [22.86 cm]
R.H. Twist / 6 grooves & landsWeight w/o magazine:6.22 lbs. [2.821 kg]Weight of empty magazine:0.25 lbs. [0.113 kg]Weight of loaded magazine:1.00 lbs. [0.454 kg]Mode of Operation:Gas Operated/Semi-Automatic


ps. OleDoc **please chime in Sir**

 

I'll start. First, please don't refer to them as "assault rifles". The military has assault rifles, the rest of us have to settle for semi auto rifles that have some of the same features that military assault rifles have. Now you and I know the difference, and I'm sure 75% of the readers of this post know the difference. It's that portion of the public with limited or no knowledge of firearms that is my concern. They read "assault rifle", immediately think of a high power killing machine, and then scream and stomp their feet calling for a ban of such weapons. Careful selection of terminology will go a long way in assauging the fear of these types of people.

Disclaimer: I don't own an AR-15 or any type of semi auto rifle, but I've done some research while comtemplating buying one so I'll share what I've learned.

A rifle from any of the main manufacturers such as Smith & Wesson, Colt, Bushmaster, Daniel Defense, Stag, Rock River, and others will be a quality product that will serve your needs. You can also buy individual components and build your own rifle. There are dozens and dozens of parts manufacturers to choose from.

Most AR-15/M4 rifles are operated by direct impingment, in that gas tapped off the barrel is routed directly onto the bolt to cycle the action. The ACR, and several others direct the gas onto a piston which in turns activates a rod to cycle the bolt. The direct impingment (DI) has been around for 45 years and is reliable provided the bolt is kept well lubed. The main drawback with DI is that the hot gas really dirties up the bolt, receiver and chamber. The piston system keeps most of the dirt on the piston itself, but a piston is another component that could fail. Interestingly the M16/M4 are the only military rifles using DI.

Most AR-15/M4 carbines are DI. There are some rifles, LWRC, Stag Model 8 and Ruger SR556, that are piston driven. There are also piston kits that can be retrofitted to an AR-15 DI rifle. It's highly recommended to avoid the piston kits since adapting the kit to a DI system leads to problems.

AR-15s can't be equipped with a folding stock. They are very mild shooting though and won't hammer your shoulder like a traditional bolt action rifle will. They can also be tricked out and assessorized to your heart's content. Basic rifles run from $600-900. More deluxe versions are $1200-1600 and the piston types run $1200-2200. Prices have been falling lately and now is a good time to buy.

If you like (and can afford) the ACR, then take a look at the FN SCAR. It's about the same, and about the same price (around $2400-2800). An alternative is the Robinson XCR. I'm seriously considering the XCR but alas, other expenses have priority. The XCR is a few hundred dollars cheaper to boot.

A neat alternative to the above is a bullpup. MSAR makes one for around $1400. Keltec also has one but it's chambered in .308/7.62mm.

While on the topic of caliber, other calibers such as 6.8 SPC and .308/7.62 can be had in many of the above mentioned guns.

Military M16/M4 are chambered in 5.56 mm. Civilian AR-15s are quite frequently chambered in .223 Remington. These two cartridges are not identical! The .223 can be shot in a rifle chambered for 5.56 with a slight loss of accuracy, but a 5.56 doesn't fit well in a rifle chambered for .223 and if shot, will develop unsafe pressure. .223 ammo is cheaper and more available than 5.56, but 5.56 rifles will shoot both rounds. Your call as to which chambering better fits your needs.

Expense doesn't end with the rifle. Ammo is around 40 cents a round (reloading will, of course, cut this dramatically). Then there is the matter of sights. A rifle can be equiped with open sights but most shooter eventually want to try an optical sight of some sort. The two big name in optical sights are Aimpoint and Eotech. Their sights run from $400 to $600 or thereabouts. Other companies offer cheaper sights but they are not as refined. Don't settle for a cheap Chinese knockoff sight for $30. These types of sights are only suitable for use on Airsoft guns and will not hold up to the recoil of a centerfire rifle. Plan on spending a minimum of $150 for a halfway decent sight. Adding new grips, rails, and a telescoping stock and that $900 AR-15 can be hitting on $2000 in short order.

Buying a 22 rimfire rifle to save money is a good idea. Smith & Wesson, HK, Sig Sauer, Colt (Umarex) and Ruger all market 22 versions. They run approximately $500-700 with the Sig possibly being the best of the bunch. Of course the Sig is also the most expensive of the bunch. FN and Robinson are rumored to be coming out with 22 versions of their rifles and these could be a good alternative.

Finally, AK-47/74 type rifles are another alternative but I really don't know anything about them. I have not reserarched them since I don't have any interest in the AK-47 series.

Please post pics of whatever you wind up getting.

 

Basically.......if you're looking for a target rifle then go with the AR series.

If you're looking for a SHTF rifle then you definitely want an AK.

I own both types, some things I've found:

~The AR has better accuracy at 100 yards by about a inch.
~The AK has wayyyyy less moving parts, and can be field stripped and cleaned just about anywhere, anytime, in about 15 minutes.
~The AK used to be cheaper to get ammo for, now it's pretty much a wash either way.
~there's tons of parts and accessories for either to make them weigh just short of a metric ton.
~AR's occasionally jam unless you clean them every day....they usually clear out very quickly though.
~I can bury my AK in the mud, drive a tank over it, beat it with a hammer and drop it from an airplane........it'll still fire problem free without jamming.
~Tracer, starburst, and incendiary ammo is fun to shoot, and is readily available for either. ( Ammunition To Go : Your one stop for all of your ammunition needs! )

If I had to make a choice.......I'd go with the AK. Not to say I don't love my AR (Sabre Defense..GREAT weapon!) .......I just really like my AK's!

 

Great post guys!!!!!!

Brent....I was thinking of getting the .22 rimfire rifle. I saw one below pic for around $500. Tell me what you think.

P 15 -22


View larger image


SMITH & WESSON M & P 15 -22



$459.99

Item#: 16954232
Style#: 811030
SKU: 0351-03425-9358

• Caliber: .22LR
• Capacity: 25 Rounds
• Action: Blow Back Semi-Auto
• Overall Length: 33.75" Extended, 30.5" Collapsed
• Stock: 6 Position CAR Stock
• Barrel Length: 16"
• # 811030

ps. Thanks Apankano for the info !!!

Also do you think this will kick hard. I mean not tear your shoulder out or anything.

 

A .22LR cartridge produces minimal recoil. For the most part anyone with the ability to hold the rifle can shoot .22LR. The .223 Remington cartridge will produce many times (like 15-20X) more recoil energy. But amongst rifles its recoil is still considered light.

 

Let me add a little to what the others have posted - which is great info, by the way.

The first thing you have to decide is what you want to do with the rifle. If you want a rifle for target and competition shooting (serious or just back yard fun), the AR series rifles are a good choice. You can customize them as far as you want to. There is every part imaginable for these rifles. However: be prepared to spend money! A plain-jane just off the shelf AR is not going to win you any target competitions. Sure they're a bit more accurate than the AK-47 series rifles, but you won't be driving tacks with them right out of the box.

Another down side to the AR series rifles is the jamming. As Brent and apkano mentioned, they jam more than most other rifles in the same price range. If you're looking for a ****-has-just-hit-the-fan kind of rifle, I would not recommend the AR rifles.

I have a Colt M7200 [Edit Corrections: it's an MT6700 not M7200], which is very similar to my service rifle (the M16-A2). That was a primary consideration when I bought it. I can tear it down and put it back together in the dark (yes, I have done that). And there's a lot to be said for that level of familiarity with a weapon.

There are a lot of other rifles to choose from out there. If I hadn't been so familiar with the AR, I wouldn't have bought one. I'm not saying don't get one - just saying you should know its weaknesses before buying and accept them or don't buy.

As for choice of caliber: go with the .223 not the .22LR. The recoil of the .223 is wimpy at its worst. If a 100 lb - 5 foot nuthin little girl can handle it, just about anyone can. A .22LR in a pistol is so minor as to be almost negligible, in a full size rifle it would be negligible. Now, if you jump up to a 7.62mm or .308 caliber, then you've got a little recoil to deal with.

 

Honestly, I'd stay away from the .22 rimfire.

If your primary concern is just making some noise and punching some holes in paper at a short distance then the .22 will be more than adequate.....but it's only marginally more powerful than a pellet gun. Ammo is also relatively cheap. If either of those reasons are why you want to go with the .22 then it's your decision.

If you're wanting something with a little more pep to it then I'd go with the .223, it has good accuracy, distance, and pretty low recoil.

If you're worried about recoil, then definitely stay away from the AK rifles.

We could offer more help if we knew your price range. You can get seriously carried away real fast when you start to figure in ammunition and accessories.

 

Tis is what I want.....something mean. Was thinking about the .22 cause I couldnt believe the $cost. Iam considering $1000-1500 now for rifle and prob get an a nice scope. I love the look of the ACR and SCAR also..Will do more homework...thanks guys keep umm coming

ps Tom I like your new Avatar but the other girl with drag time slip takes the cake.LOL!!

 

Yeah...i want some punch to it and bring the noise. Upping price range $1000-1500 for rifle.I was kind of worried about the price for the .223 is why I considered the .22 I want to accessorize the rail and not sure if you can with the AK.

random price check for the .223 case of 1000 remanufactured bullets $417

 

You can do anything to the AK that you can to the AR.

HPIM0645.jpg

 

Damn!!!! now we are talking!!! I didnt know you could accessorize the AK like this. I love the look of the rail and want to get the hand grip. Thanks!!

 

here's a video of a rifle with a little more recoil than the .223:

YouTube - Arab Shooting Gun Test

 

that was funny, what caliber was that////

 

I have a Colt AR-A2, a Daiwoo .223, 2 AK's 1 is a folder, .308 bolt action Savage 110 tactical, I just sold 2 of my other 110 Savages, 1 in .308, 1 in .223....all bull barrels...or heavy barrels...I have a Russian SKS, which is a fun plinker....cheap but accurate...Barreta 12 gauge semi auto, now this is a shot gun....if you want to blow things up...9 rounds in less than 3 seconds...load her with 00 and tear something apart...lol....anyway that is just a few of the toys.....buy something that is simple to learn with, and once you get a little knowledge and experience, move up the bigger toys...either way, do this at a qualified range...these calibers carry for great distances...wouldn't want you to get in trouble...lol

 

For straight up blowing things up.......it's hard to beat a semi-auto shotgun!

Though I have had luck with the Thompson and the Browning.........

HPIM0663.jpg

 

that makes the feds want to know where you live....lol

 

.577 Tyrannosaur according to some of the comments.

 

Gold, Guns and Crossfires. Sounds like a great GOOD (GET OUT OF DODGE) plan to me.

 

I'm reasonably sure they already do.

 

Ole Doc I Knew you had some weapons!!! LOL... Interesting....Russian SKS...gotta do a search for a pic...always heard people talking about SKS's. My friend says his father has one.



Anybody got an AA12 automatic shotgun....thing looks nasty!