Re: a 4-wheel alignment, A Chrysler dealership told me the Crossfire's rear camber it not adjustable. Is this true?

 

yep this is true.

edit: not as the factory set-up allows. so i have been told by my alignment shop... who is well educated in this area. aftermarket parts possibly available.

 

Not 100% true... They can use the crash bolts to adjust the camber +/- .5 degrees

 

Crash bolts are only for the front... There is a fully adjustable kit that can be purchased from a company in Australia. Info on this forum...

 

Just out of curiosity, why do you need to adjust the rear camber on the car?

Is it because the rear wheels are wearing on the outside only?
Is your reason for camber adj.? If so, you should have the shop toe the rear wheels out. This will give you better wear pattern and more use of your rubber.

 

dynamicS, I was wanting it adjusted because it's out of specs, thanks to my dealer service dept.

My Crossfire (bought used in April -- CARFAX'ed & mechanic checked that never in an accident) was out of alignment. Brought it to the dealer for a 4-wheel alignment. It cost five hundred dollars!!!, for 4.5 hours labor & caster and camber bolts. I requested the stats sheet showing the specs, and before and after measurements. After reviewing them I sent the following email to the service manager:

"Looking at the "Current Measurements" sheet, I noticed that 11 of the 12 alignment dimensions are now within the specified
range. I also noticed that for most of those, the outcome was at the periphery of the specified range. This is the most I've ever paid for a car alignment, and I understand that the complexities of the Crossfire are the justification for that, but when spending just shy of $500 for an alignment, I anticipated that all of the outcome dimensions would be near the center line of the specified ranges. Could you tell me why most of the others were more left or right than center?"

"I am concerned that there is a dimension that is out of range. The right rear camber is at -2.0 where the specified range is -1.6 to -0.6. Someone wrote an explanation on the sheet saying, "Rear camber is not adjustable." While I am aware that the rear camber is not adjustable, the "before" measurements on the paperwork you provided me show that when I brought the car there the rear camber was in range. It looks to me that before I came in, my rear camber was in alignment, and now that my services are completed my rear camber is irreversibly out of alignment. Please write me back to explain what happened."

The service manager responded:

"I spoke with the Crossfire mechanic and he explains the way the adjuster bolts are this is the best achievable results on the front, he can add or subtract 3.0 mm and that's it. As far as the rear when he made the before measurement the rear slip plates were locked and he noticed it on the final measurement. On the final measurement he unlocked the plates and that's when it showed up. He states, there is no visible damage on the rear wheel, frame or anything else. He told me on the first check on 11/10/06 it was barley in specs and we are talking about tenths of a degree not an inch so it is very small amount. He does not know why it has changed but he worked and worked on it until he got the best possible results. With rear camber on that vehicle to go any further it would need to go to a body shop and have some frame measurements, the Crossfire mechanic feels it so little that it will not affect the handling or life of the tires at this point I would recommend we monitor the tread on that side tire for abnormal wear and if non in the next 12,000 mile it will be ok. Please let me know what you think."

Do any forum members agree with this statement about the alignment only being minimally adjustable? I can't believe that on a car that MSRPs for 35K that is still under warranty, it can't be aligned to the center of the specs. Also what is a rear slip plate and why would they be unlocked? What is reasonable re-compensation if you bring the car to the dealer and they make out of range an alignment dimension that (1) can't be corrected and (2) was in range when you brought it in. I don't think we don't know how it happened is an acceptable answer, do you?

Any advice?

 

Send in your complaint to Dr. Z staff, with all your documentation of their errors. After busting their ***** you might be able to get a refund and another alignment. But try another dealer.

Why are you paying for an alignment, isn't that covered by warrantee?

 

Thanks dynamicS,

If the alignment is covered under the 3 yr/36K manufacturer's or 7 yr/70K maxcare warranty, someone please put a post up referencing the requisite section of the warranty.

The dealer said the alignment is only warrantied for one year, which I am passed.

When I read the 7/70 warranty (prior to getting the alignment) it lists as an exclusion, "Maintenance services specified in the owner's manual and the parts used in connection with such services such as . . . suspension alignment . . ." The 3/36 warranty paperwork isn't very specific; I went to Chrysler.com to try to download the full one and they didn't have the 2005 Crossfire warranty.

Sounds like it's excluded; I would love to hear if I'm wrong & this mess would be covered.

update -- I did find the 2004 Xfi 3/36 warranty on the web, it states that the alignment and wheel balancing are covered for 12 mos or 12K miles. I've got 25K. Too bad.

Thanks.

 

Re: The right rear camber is at -2.0 where the specified range is -1.6 to -0.6, and it not being adjustable.

How serious of a problem is this?

 

CrossfireGal,
In the service manual section 2-12 says about rear camber:

The camber on the rear axle is not adjustable. If substantial deviations in the rear axle camber are found, the cause may be one of the following:
1. Too great a difference in the vehicle level between the right and left-hand sides of the vehicle.
2. Camber strut bent.
3. Accident damage to the frame floor. Level differences at the mounting points for the rear axle carrier between the left and right sides of the body. Experience shows that bending caused by accident also has an effect on the toe.

The service manual does indicate rear camber as -1.13 degrees. It doesn't give a range, so substantial deviations may be hard to define. At any rate, -2.0 degrees sounds pretty close to me for rear camber.

 

Thanks polywave, so you don't think that -2.0 is 'far' enough from
-1.13 to cause bad things?

Also what is a "rear slip plate" and should it be "locked" or "unlocked"?

Thanks.

 

There are 2 threads going on this subject. The other one points out, correctly in my opinion, that the difference in readings is the setup.

You probably already know by now the camber is the side to side tilt of the wheel. A measuring device is attached to the wheel to measure the amount of tilt the wheel has. I believe that attaching these devices consistently from one setup to another is very difficult to keep within 1 or 2 degrees.

On the subject of wheel alignment:
The service manual points out specifically that the vehicle level (side to side) at the front and rear axels must be within specification before a wheel alignment is performed (Section 2-8).

The car must be level from one side to the other, otherwise the tilt of the car will tilt the wheels (like parking sideways on a hill).

To perform a wheel alignment, the car is driven onto plates (part of the wheel alignment machine), and the plates are then unlocked, or allowed to slide sideways. This allows the bottom of the tire (the tire patch) to slide in or out, whatever is needed to come to rest. This affects the tilt (camber) of the wheels. Because the car is heavy the plates will slide easier, or not so easy. Especially in the last 1 or 2 degrees.

The rear camber on the CF is not adjustable, and if yours hasn't been wrecked, or seriously damaged, it's likely within specification.

Rear camber has the greatest affect on tire wear, if it's tilted outward, the outside of the tire will wear faster than the inside (reducing the number of miles you get from the tire). Experience has shown me that it takes a significant amount of camber to cause significant wear (more like 10 degrees).

I recommend having your tire shop keep an eye on all your tire's wear (front and rear). If there is uneven wear on the tires, you might decide to peruse the alignment issue. If your wheel alignment (camber and toe) are ok, and you swap the tires side to side every 10,000 miles or so the effects of normal camber and toe won't ever show up on the tires.

I would never try to discourage someone from keeping their vehicle properly aligned and adjusted in any manner, in fact I'm quite impressed with your pursuit of this issue. But, and only a tiny one, it's easy to get bogged down with the specifications. Specifications, IMO, are generated so that we can keep the device performing within the range intended by the design engineer (you might have guessed that I'm an engineer by now).

Wheel alignment is important, especially when it comes to tire wear.

 

Wow, thanks polywave, that detailed explanation really helped me out. Thank you.

 

This is the kind of intelligent discussion that makes this forum great.

 

Since we're deeply involved in the subject, I though I would post the "Specified Range" based on the OEM spec. for future reference...

Front camber -1.5 degrees, to -0.9 degrees
Rear camber -1.6 degrees, to -0.6 degrees

This includes the Limited and SRT6.

 

Well, I have a plan.

I spoke today with a mechanic friend of the family who lives in Delaware. This is the most reputable mechanic's shop I've ever known. The only reason I don't bring my Crossfire there for everything is because it's 150 miles away and I have no other need to go to Delaware. If anyone resides in Delaware PM me, and I'll provide the name and address. Anyway, he had his alignment guy review my mess of paperwork and he had nothing good to say.

He said he expects the car is still pulling (which it is), as the alignment dimensions in their totality are such that the car will not handle right and the tires will be torn up in no time. I'm going to bring the car to Delaware next week to get this mess straightened out, which will basically involve all manner of hassle and time off work to get there and back. I'm going to tell the service manager at the dealership that I want my money back. If he doesn't refund what I expended, he can be prepared to pay more when I sue, to include full refund, payment for the Delaware alignment, lost wages for my trip to Delaware, and lawyer's fees. Of course I can throw in an offer to name names on the Crossfire forum for all to see.

Here were my final measurements. If you have any words of advice on why these aren't good that I include in my letter, please post 'em. I have the anger, attitude, and perseverance necessary to fight the dealer, but want to make sure I word correctly what's not acceptable; please post anything that looks off in terms of the interrelationships:

Front Camber -- specs -0.9 to -1.5; result was -1.1 left, -1.0 right
Front Caster -- specs 5.7 to 4.7; result was 5.5 left, 5.5 right (couldn't these have been centered?)
Front Toe -- specs .08 to .25; result was .24 left, .17 right (both are in range but isn't it bad that they're nowhere near matching? isn't this the easiest one to get dead center?)

Rear Camber -- specs -0.6 to -1.6; result was -1.4 left, -2.0 right
Rear Toe -- specs .22 to .33; result was .24 left, .25 right
Total Toe -- specs .43 to .67; result was .5
Thrust angle -- spec at zero; result was -.01

 

OY VEY !!! High maintenance... Your alignment is within tolerance... Talk about making mountains out of mole hills !!! If it bugs you that much, go buy the K-MAC alignment kit and have it installed at a race shop outside the loop !!!

 

yeah what's the problem? everything is within specs.

 

Everything in spec except that pesky right rear camber.

I just searched my entire service manual for Thrust Angle, didn't find it.

 

Okay... Now we're on a topic that I know A LOT about. I spent 2 and a half years doing alignments on top end cars in Ponte Verde, FL. I have done Porsches, BMW, Mercedes, NSX's, and many others. I went to alignment school for Goodyear, so these I know.

Before I go into this, I just wanted to let you know that if you had anything heavy in the rear of you car, even a golf bag, you can sometimes affect the Camber on any car. And the whole "locking the plate" thing, well I have never worked on a rack that you leave the plates locked to either measure or adjust a car. The only times that the plates are locked is when you are compensating the heads of the alignment rack. After that point you have to unlock them for the car to sit as natural as possible.

Looking at your specs that you have listed...

Your car I would think is pulling to the right. If it is doing that, I would guess that is not a very hard pull on most roads and sometimes pulls harder. That would be due to road crown. That is the camber they put on roads to help the rain drain off. Most cars come from the factory with a slight pull to the left to compensate for the crown of roads. Your Camber is sitting with your left tire leaning in more than the right, so that is what's causing the pull to that direction. If a mechanic tells you that Camber will not cause a pull... HE'S FULL OF IT! If your car is pull to the left, then you are having issues with one of your front tires and swapping the two fronts will cause it to pull the other way. In that case you might be in need of some tires, and if you just got new tires, you need to swap them to check first and if the direction changes take them back and say you have a "radial pull". I really don't see what else could be causing that problem. Your Caster is the only other thing that can cause a car to pull and with yours being even, its not that. Toe will not cause a pull. If your toe is way out of wack then your steering wheel will either sit off center, or you will get bad "waves" on either the outside or inside edges of the tire.

As for your Camber issue on the rear...

If you were coming to the shop that I worked at, I would recommend trying to drive the car the way it is for a short period of time. Maybe 2 weeks, and see what kinda wear pattern you get. .04 off is kinda close and might not show a large amount of wear. If the wear is minimal, then I would let it go and maybe just swap the rear after 10,000 miles or as needed.
so that you do not wear out your tires, keep check the inside edge for excessive wear. If the tire wears quickly, then I would see about correcting it. Which being that the rear is non-adjustable, you will have to get an aftermarket kit to correct the problem.

One thing that you have to keep in mind about German made cars. They are made to have strong amounts of rear Camber. Most American mechanics will be quick to try and set the rear Camber a 0.0 to reduce the wear on the tires which only has about a 50% chance of not wearing out the outside edges of the rear tire.

If you still need some more help, just email me and we can get in discuss this better. lod13roc@hotmail.com