Recirculating Ball
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From: Greensboro, NC
Re: Recirculating Ball
Originally Posted by AMGLover
Nice argument but not very valid technically.
3)Slop -technically proven that RB has less slop in the gear box
3)Slop -technically proven that RB has less slop in the gear box
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From: Greensboro, NC
Re: Recirculating Ball
Ok, for the sake of AMGLover, I'll amend my statement to:
"The steering feel and feedback of the Crossfire is a lot worse than all of my previous autocross cars (Miata, Celica, and RX-8)."
I believe part of it is the recirculating ball design, but I can't prove it, and I'm ok with that.
"The steering feel and feedback of the Crossfire is a lot worse than all of my previous autocross cars (Miata, Celica, and RX-8)."
I believe part of it is the recirculating ball design, but I can't prove it, and I'm ok with that.
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From: Reston, VA
Re: Recirculating Ball
Originally Posted by AMGLover
Nice argument but not very valid technically.
1) Just like in a marriage the words never and always should not be used -they get you into trouble...so saying R/B gives you no feed back is incorrect.
2) Boost pressure... the feel of R/P and R/B is very much dictated by hydraulic pressure and the calibration of the "speed sensing" pump.
3) Slop - technically proven that RB has less slop in the gear box.
3) Cost. The reason that MB is moving to RP is NOT that they want to be sporty (but they are leveraging the HYPE) but cost. The RB gear and linkage cost $3,240 the RP unit in the C55 cost only $2,420. So MB is delivering a cheaper product and making us feel good about it.
Now I never attach peoples opinion, but I will be all over ya on technical issues. NoCones unless you take any 2 cars that are identical (same tires, wheels, alignment, etc) and place a RB unit in one and a RP unit in the other testing via "seat of your pants" you can't say that one is better then the other. (BTW what is the steering ratio and steering wheel diameter on an RX8)?
Also when you poo-poo a system understand what is in it. Did you know that the crossfire has an additional hydraulic damper that eliminates undesirable yaw motions and enhances straight-ahead steering feel? Probably not... (Well at least you learned something new in this post).
Once again cars are SYSTEMS not just components! So arguments like RP better then RB are just so much bull ****. Maxwell I'm out as well...where are we going for drinks and a constructive conversation?
1) Just like in a marriage the words never and always should not be used -they get you into trouble...so saying R/B gives you no feed back is incorrect.
2) Boost pressure... the feel of R/P and R/B is very much dictated by hydraulic pressure and the calibration of the "speed sensing" pump.
3) Slop - technically proven that RB has less slop in the gear box.
3) Cost. The reason that MB is moving to RP is NOT that they want to be sporty (but they are leveraging the HYPE) but cost. The RB gear and linkage cost $3,240 the RP unit in the C55 cost only $2,420. So MB is delivering a cheaper product and making us feel good about it.
Now I never attach peoples opinion, but I will be all over ya on technical issues. NoCones unless you take any 2 cars that are identical (same tires, wheels, alignment, etc) and place a RB unit in one and a RP unit in the other testing via "seat of your pants" you can't say that one is better then the other. (BTW what is the steering ratio and steering wheel diameter on an RX8)?
Also when you poo-poo a system understand what is in it. Did you know that the crossfire has an additional hydraulic damper that eliminates undesirable yaw motions and enhances straight-ahead steering feel? Probably not... (Well at least you learned something new in this post).
Once again cars are SYSTEMS not just components! So arguments like RP better then RB are just so much bull ****. Maxwell I'm out as well...where are we going for drinks and a constructive conversation?
i guess all those thousands of car reviews and the opinions of countless test drivers were all wrong.
RB might be more expensive.
but if your argument had any merit.
when was the last time you heard of a ferrari/porsche/lamborghini/pagani/mclaren etc etc using a RB system?
surely in those kinds of cars, cost is not as much an issue.
you might be as you say, all over me technically, but i think knowing the technical aspects of it are clouding your judgment.
i have driven about 4 or 5 cars that had RB and countless others that have RP, there is no comparison in feel.
i, who might not be as adept technically, felt that, and that difference was obvious.
only other car i can think of that used to use RB (not incl MB) is the old shape Jeep wrangler.
hardly what any normal person would consider a sporty ride.
Last edited by kmarei; Jun 8, 2007 at 03:20 PM.
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From: Cincinnati
Re: Recirculating Ball
The devil is in the DETAILS...
A light four cylinder Manual rack and pinion steered car does indeed respond like a go cart.
A big heavy car with Power rack and pinion steering is not going to be so great. I've had a '97 Cougar (3,800 lbs.) with a v8 and a Jeep Liberty with a diesel engine (4,150 lbs); both have rack and pinion and neither one steers as nice as my crossfire. (duh ! 2,960 lbs)
I like the Crossfire's steering. It doesn't kick back and fight me over every pothole, road seam and tar strip like a rack and pinion setup. My Cougar had some pretty fat tires and it used to pull and tramline in the "hog-wallow" rutted freeways around here like crazy.
Rack and pinion is, LIGHTER, CHEAPER AND SIMPLER.
But not automatically better...
Slim
A light four cylinder Manual rack and pinion steered car does indeed respond like a go cart.
A big heavy car with Power rack and pinion steering is not going to be so great. I've had a '97 Cougar (3,800 lbs.) with a v8 and a Jeep Liberty with a diesel engine (4,150 lbs); both have rack and pinion and neither one steers as nice as my crossfire. (duh ! 2,960 lbs)
I like the Crossfire's steering. It doesn't kick back and fight me over every pothole, road seam and tar strip like a rack and pinion setup. My Cougar had some pretty fat tires and it used to pull and tramline in the "hog-wallow" rutted freeways around here like crazy.
Rack and pinion is, LIGHTER, CHEAPER AND SIMPLER.
But not automatically better...
Slim
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From: Mid-Michigan
Re: Recirculating Ball
Hmmm, rack and pinion vs. recirculating ball . . . never really thought about it.
Wonder what my other cars use? Let me go check . . . google, etc. . . 5 minutes pass . . . Ah, here we go.
My 2005 4Runner has rack and pinion.
My 2001 Accord V6 has rack and pinion.
. . . Not sure that it matters to me.
I like 'em, and the way they drive.
Guess that's good enough for me -
.
Wonder what my other cars use? Let me go check . . . google, etc. . . 5 minutes pass . . . Ah, here we go.
My 2005 4Runner has rack and pinion.
My 2001 Accord V6 has rack and pinion.
. . . Not sure that it matters to me.
I like 'em, and the way they drive.
Guess that's good enough for me -
.
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From: No
Re: Recirculating Ball
Originally Posted by RPM
Hmmm, rack and pinion vs. recirculating ball . . . never really thought about it.
Wonder what my other cars use? Let me go check . . . google, etc. . . 5 minutes pass . . . Ah, here we go.
My 2005 4Runner has rack and pinion.
My 2001 Accord V6 has rack and pinion.
. . . Not sure that it matters to me.
I like 'em, and the way they drive.
Guess that's good enough for me - .
Wonder what my other cars use? Let me go check . . . google, etc. . . 5 minutes pass . . . Ah, here we go.
My 2005 4Runner has rack and pinion.
My 2001 Accord V6 has rack and pinion.
. . . Not sure that it matters to me.
I like 'em, and the way they drive.
Guess that's good enough for me -
.
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Charlotte, NC
Re: Recirculating Ball
My two cents: I never drove a car with the kind of steering the Crossfire has. All have been rack and pinion, that I am aware of. To me, my Crossfire feels different, but not in a bad way. It feels very confident, to me. I don't feel like I am lacking information from which to make adjustments or anything like that. I've taken some fairly serious liberties regarding speed limits on some of the twisty, fun roads around where I live and can tell when it is starting to understeer towards its limits just fine. The rest of the time, the car just seems to do what I ask of it, which is perfect, if you ask me.
Taking my thoughts a little further up the line... I think it might be possible that some reviewers and certainly many of us lay folk may not really understand how this car SHOULD feel. Based on my past experiences, I had thought the Crossfire would feel much like one of the old early 90's, late 80's Honda CRX's did. Very go-karty. Seat of the pants. etc. etc. Perhaps with more traction, etc., etc. But that was what I was thinking. My guess is that if you only have a day or two to review a car and you must form your opinions based on prior experiences, you might think that flying by the seat of your pants thing is missing and that this is bad. Having now spent some time with it, my Crossfire feels a whole lot more in control and refined than any other car I've driven.
However, I may be biased. Other than my '69 Camaro, it is the coolest car I've ever owned (though in totally different ways which are not at all comparable).
Taking my thoughts a little further up the line... I think it might be possible that some reviewers and certainly many of us lay folk may not really understand how this car SHOULD feel. Based on my past experiences, I had thought the Crossfire would feel much like one of the old early 90's, late 80's Honda CRX's did. Very go-karty. Seat of the pants. etc. etc. Perhaps with more traction, etc., etc. But that was what I was thinking. My guess is that if you only have a day or two to review a car and you must form your opinions based on prior experiences, you might think that flying by the seat of your pants thing is missing and that this is bad. Having now spent some time with it, my Crossfire feels a whole lot more in control and refined than any other car I've driven.
However, I may be biased. Other than my '69 Camaro, it is the coolest car I've ever owned (though in totally different ways which are not at all comparable).
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From: San Diego, CA
Re: Recirculating Ball
My other car is a Dodge Spirit with rack and pinion but I don't detect a whole lot of steering difference between the Spirit and Crossfire (and my version of the Spirit is very much a sports sedan). The Crossfire steering is a little dead when the wheel is centered, otherwise they feel about the same. However, in the Spirit every little street imperfection gets transmitted through to the steering wheel. Considering how stiff the suspension is on the Crossfire, especially the SRT-6, and those low profile tires; can you imagine how annoyingly the steering wheel would jolt when driving? I'll take a little loss of road feel for a better steering wheel experience any day.
Brent
Brent
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From: Cincinnati
Re: Recirculating Ball
Hey this IS a Mercedes product not a Lotus or Porsche.
These cars are the creation of engineers who build refined luxury cars. Rude noise, vibration coarse sensations and wheel kick-back are to be avoided if possible.
That's why M-B stuck with Recirculating Ball systems for so long.
It's also why the shifter is like it is on the six-speed. It was designed to isolate the driver from rude mechanical sensations from the drivetrain. The downside is a sort of disconnected "rubbery" sensation when shifted quickly.
The engineers designed the car to meet specific goals and provide a certain level of confident, relaxed driving experience appropriate for a Mercedes product. Feeling every crack and tar strip or having a shift **** buzzing like a vibrator in your hand was what they were probably striving to avoid !
Slim
These cars are the creation of engineers who build refined luxury cars. Rude noise, vibration coarse sensations and wheel kick-back are to be avoided if possible.
That's why M-B stuck with Recirculating Ball systems for so long.
It's also why the shifter is like it is on the six-speed. It was designed to isolate the driver from rude mechanical sensations from the drivetrain. The downside is a sort of disconnected "rubbery" sensation when shifted quickly.
The engineers designed the car to meet specific goals and provide a certain level of confident, relaxed driving experience appropriate for a Mercedes product. Feeling every crack and tar strip or having a shift **** buzzing like a vibrator in your hand was what they were probably striving to avoid !
Slim
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From: Greensboro, NC
Re: Recirculating Ball
Originally Posted by Cincinnati Slim
It's also why the shifter is like it is on the six-speed. It was designed to isolate the driver from rude mechanical sensations from the drivetrain. The downside is a sort of disconnected "rubbery" sensation when shifted quickly.
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From: Wake Forest, North Carolina
Re: Recirculating Ball
In no way, shape, or form does the six-speed fell rubbery. It may not be the best in the world, but I like the feel and execution of the shifter and it's linkage.
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From: Cincinnati
Re: Recirculating Ball
Hey, no argument regards auto-x events. R&P steering is ideal there.
But in the real world of cruddy, patched, rutted and pothole filled roads here in Cincinnati
a bit of isolation is a very good thing. Believe me, I've driven my friends high Hp front drivers with quick rack and pinion steering. Pretty neat on a smooth auto-x course but on the street the combination of torque steer and the kick-back from the road imperfections gets old real quick.
My Crossfire just goes where I point it regardless of road quality or weather.
Can't say that about many other short wheelbase rear wheel drive cars.
Cheers,
Slim
But in the real world of cruddy, patched, rutted and pothole filled roads here in Cincinnati
a bit of isolation is a very good thing. Believe me, I've driven my friends high Hp front drivers with quick rack and pinion steering. Pretty neat on a smooth auto-x course but on the street the combination of torque steer and the kick-back from the road imperfections gets old real quick.
My Crossfire just goes where I point it regardless of road quality or weather.
Can't say that about many other short wheelbase rear wheel drive cars.
Cheers,
Slim
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