Guys I have read all these post about how to increase hp in the base crossfires. I have one question. Has anyone considered goin to the salvage yard and trying to pull the egine out of a c32. Its cheaper than spending oodles of money on custom jobs. I know a srt-6 transmission would need to be swapped in with a srt6 driveshaft. Ive been looking and hoping someone would ask this question but no one has. Reason Im asking is the junk yard in the area where im at has a c32 that was wrecked. Ima talk to the owner and see if I can't get a "durg Deal Price"...lol on it. I think this could be a possible end to all the wet dreams of amping up the base engine in the crossfire. All yoiur input is greatly appreciated. Ima young guy and I appreciate all the knowledge the wiser old men post on here. Thanks in advance for time and help.

 

It has been done by house of Power. They put a C32 engine in a C320. I spoke to the owner and he was able to use the stock computer. the only thing he said was that super charger was always on (like most other super charged cars). See the pictures here. I am very close to swapping a V8 into my car but the issues are similar. I don't believe they chanaged anything other than the engine. Stock trans and other stuff you mentioned didn't have to be changed. If you make a deal in the engine get everything just to be safe icluding engine wiring harness and computer.

http://www.hopracing.com/galleries.php?id=4

 

House of Power swapped the M112k motor into a MB sport coupe

 

kenyonmjr6:

if you have any questions about the swap, PM Pshek on mbworld.org as he is the one who has the C32 swap

 

Finacially you are really gearing up to throw alot of money out the window.
The statement you made about your plans only shows you have done no research what so ever. You would think someone that owns a car he would like to modify would at the evry least know something about his car. I don't try to shoot peoples dreams down but this mod will NEVER even start let alone happen.
Sorry...
Mike

 

Wow, if you have the time and the funds, go for it and good luck! I personally would sell the n/a crossfire and purchase an SRT-6 just to save all the time and aggravation. My hat's off to the people though that have successfully done this.

 

I say go for it but with that being said, be ready to work on it like a bad marriage you just won't give up on. I will tell you right now that the stock ECU is not running everything. I have a little over $2500 invested in mine between ECUs and other components and it's still not in the car. First things first, the factory ECU will no way shape or form read boost. Zip, zilch, nada, won't do it. It will read vacuum till the cows come home but you throw boost at it and see you later. Next, it's throttle by wire so any ECU will have to understand how this works and you will be retaining your factory ECU to make all this happen. This means you will be using your factory ECU as a piggyback to the stand alone you will need to wire all your sensor in parallel to keep your factory ECU happy and make everything work. I know people say that they've done it with the factory ECU. ChuckNorris is using special means to get everything working but I'd venture to say it's not harmoniously working like it should to give you the power you're looking to get at the price of tunability and for the HP per $ spent, you're gonna be dumping a whole lot of money into something at your own risk with no guarantee you'll get it working the way you anticipate. Lastly, if you're going to drop $3-4k on this upgrade and that is being very conservative, for another grand, you can get into an SRT6 no matter what year/trim your car is unless it's been put into a tree or something. If it's the manual transmission you're set on, then this is the way to go but if you have an auto, there is no reason to look at doing this from a financially sound standpoint. I hate telling people to go get and SRT6 because that's what everyone says when someone talks about FI on these cars but for the money you're going to spend, you'll be a lot happier and you won't have a car no one will work on, you can get an extended waranty on it, and it's proven. For me, it's not about the money same as HDDP. I'm not sure what your situation is so I'll leave it at that. Words of wisdom though, no one sells a kit for this besides Kleemann and it costs $9k for a reason and they won't let you install it yourself because of the complexity of it. There are more failed FI threads on this forum than I have fingers and toes so do your research, make up your mind either way and tackle the hell out of it. If I did it all over again, I'd buy an SRT6 put $2500 into a manual trans and HP mods. There is 10-fold the performance parts for that car than the base/limited. Sorry to be long winded but like I said in the beginning, this will be a commitment if you do go ahead with it. If you have any other questions, PM me for my phone number and I can answer any questions you have in more detail.

 

Gentlemen I appreciate that information. I'll just puta for sale sign on the X-fire to make way for a Srt-6. I prefer honesty then bullshit and all of you have legit arguements thanks for the knowledge.

 

Before you totaly give up the idea, I would talk to the guy who actually did this and see what is actually involved. You can call Josh at House of Power at 1-714-842-9515 He did tell me that he used the stock ECU which everyone told him was impossible. He is a nice guy and more than willing to talk about it.

 

ok here's a dumb question....... you go to the junk yard and get the C32 engine, tranny etc, why not get the computer as well? Or will this not work with the other components in the existing car?

 

Not a dumb question at all. I would get the computer too. I don't think there is any need to pay extra for the tranny though. When I spoke to Josh at house of power, I believe he used the stock ECU. The reason for this is that the ECU stores data and if you try to change ECU the anti- theft system will keep the car from ever starting. Regardless of what was said above in this thread Josh did get the stock ECU to work with the boosted engine. I also discussed the route I am going with the ECU for my V8 conversion since using the stock ECU is not an option with the V8. He seemed interested in my approach which is to have the ECU unlocked by Beckman technologies and then programed to the car with the Star diagnostic system. This is kind of like what would happen if your ECU wnet bad and you had to get a new one. After programming to the car and associating all the options on the car the ECU will lock the third time the key is turned. It will lock in the key and VIN number into the ECU.

 

This part makes no sense. The ECU reads signals from the MAF, which itself converts the velocity of the air that goes past the wire in the MAF into a voltage. This is what the ECU uses to tweak AFR as a function of throttle position. With this in mind, it might be useful to use an SRT6 MAF, which I am assuming could be a little different than the NA coupe version. But yeah, it's the MAF, not the ECU which is generally the problem with most motronic-based systems that I am aware of.

 

I don't care what any of this says, I will turbo my N/A! Good thing HOP is located in Huntington cause I'm going to need all the help i can get.

 

You’re correct; it’s quite different. Intake manifold pressure is signaled via a MAP sensor.

 

Can we get into more detail with this stuff .. I don't know much about fuel injection systems. So a MAF and a MAP are interchangeable? In other words, with an SRT6 MAP, all you would have to do is calibrate the ecu or modify the signal from the MAP to read the correct voltage in order modify the fuel curve into a safe range?

 

As I understand it, they are two different ways of doing the same thing. The MAF sensor is essentially an exposed metal wire that extends down the center of a ~3in plastic tube as part of the intake tract. As air enters the intake tract, it passes across this wire. I forgot the exact details (anyone can feel free to fill in the missing parts), but the act of the air passing across the wire, will create a certain voltage that is by nature associated with a specific volume of air that will enter the motor. It is by knowing this volume of air, that the ECU knows how much fuel to add. So when the air passes through the MAF, it is now referred to as "metered" air. Any leak in the intake system after the air passes the maf will cause the motor to run poorly as less air than was measured will enter the motor, but the ECU won't know this, and a rich running condition will start.

With regard to boost, neither the ECU nor the MAF "know" what a turbo is, all they know is air and fuel--it all comes down to maps in the ECU that correspond to certain volumes of air with fuel in relation to RPM, throttle position, etc. So technically, yes, you can run boost on a MAF based system. However, most MAF systems are set to read only a certain amount of air volume after which it will not register additional air flow and then you have a very lean situation. My VW has this same type of system and the VR6 (6-cyl narrow angle VW motor) guys have been through this stuff for quite a while. It looks like the NA crossfire has the same 5v limit as the maf for the VR6. What this means is that you can program the ECU to read boost, but there is a limit. It is believed by many that 10 psi is about the max the stock MAF on a VR6 will handle. This may or may not hold true on a crossfire. What this essentially means is that on cars with 10+ psi, the volume of air being sucked past the MAF will effectively create a MAF voltage that is unreadable by th ecu. The way to get around this is to create a large MAF housing (the plastic tube that contains the MAF wire) which will serve to functionally slow down the velocity of air.

IMO, this should be TVTs next project. It seems like they know the software, which is by far, the hardest part of all of this. The hardware is the easy part, comparatively speaking. I'd love to see a NA crossfire with a rotrex centrigual charger like the BMW guys used. The self contained design of the charger lubrication system means you won't have to tap the oil pan. I believe Procharger also has a similar setup on their superchargers.



Now the MAP stuff I am not familiar with, so if any of the MAP guys could chime in, that would be great. All of my experience is with MAF-based setups. Though I do recall reading that for forced induction that MAP systems are easier to work with when it comes to boost.

 

Good info... thanks!

 

MAF is a Mass Air Flow sensor. It measures the amount of air going into the engine by heating an element that is in the airstream and registering the amount of current required to keep it at a constant temperature. To make it work, the ECU must have the following information: MAF airway size, incoming air temp, throttle body size, throttle position, engine load and engine RPM. It requires all these parameters because it interpolates the amount of air entering the engine but teh same voltage will mean somethign completely different if the aforementioned values aren't the same. For instance, you're accelerating up a hill with the cruise on vs WOT start from a dead stop. the voltage coming from the MAF have the potential to be the same but there is way more load on the engine from a dead stop than just keeping speed going up a hill and as a result, the engine could be drawing in the same amount of air but all the other things would be different.

MAP is Manifold Absolute Pressure. It is measuring the pressure of the air intake tract whether it be vacuum or boost. This will read differently depending on your altitude and adjust accordingly for air density. It's not perfect but it is more accurate than MAF when measuring the actual pressure going into the cylinders. It is a stand alone sensor in that to get its' specific value, it does not require the use of other sensors on the car. With this, the ECU does all the leg work for what part of the fuel table it should be in.

Now the reason that this car is such a pain to do FI on has nothing to do with the fact that it uses a MAF or a MAP. The NA actually has a MAP sensor to measure vacuum but the second it sees boost, it knows it's a no-no and doesn't know how to respond. The other thing is that as you go from vacuum to boost, the SRT ECU knows that it is approaching this threshold and it knows that shortly, it will either be back in boost or stay in vacuum. The NA ECU reads lack of vacuum as lower engine load and also lower fuel requirement - a bad match because it will cause a lean condition if it is actually in boost.

Hope this helps those interested.

 

I'm confused a few things in this reply. According to the crossfire owners manual that is found in this forum, there is information for both MAP and MAF sensors--I'm assuming no crossfire has both. And based on another reply in this thread, I am guessing the SRT6 has a map sensor and the NA has a maf sensor. What am I missing here?

Secondly, you are a little vague about "no-no" when the NA sees boost. What does that mean? I know there is no actual code in the ECU that literally reads "no-no". My guess is exactly what I stated is the voltage exceeds the parameters set by the ECU-MAF relationship. However, it shouldn't be an absolute. There should be some level of boost (3psi for example) it can read. Unless of course, there are other problems, like the fuel injectors themselves won't be able to handle even small amounts of boost. Or some additional mechanism that Mercedes decided to add to these motors.

There's something I'm not understand with the information found in this thread. Negative or positive manifold pressure technically shouldn't matter (the absolute velocity is the important factor), at least on a MAF-based system.

 

The MAF along with lots of other systems determines where in the fuel table it needs to be on the NA. It has a MAP sensor and that is part of what measures engine load as it is on the vacuum lines in the front of the engine jsut to the right of the thermostat housing when looking at it from the front.

The SRT does not have a MAF sensor as it uses the MAP exclusivly.

As for the no-no, i'm don't remember what the exact names of the codes are but there are a few and it's along the lines of bad map sensor/incorrect reading for the given parameters or some other tehcnical statement used to encompass that type of error.

As far as boost, if you have the map between the throttle body and whatever you're using for FI, it will always read vacuum.

Hope this clears some stuff up.