The math doesn't add up to more POWER.
Please help me here.
I love the looks of the NEW Needswings manifolds. But no matter how I write it up it still comes out the same, No Extra Power.
If I am wrong please chime in but please think first.
Blower = same amount of CFM
Larger pipes and manifolds = < LBS Pressure and < CFM @ initial WOT
Intakes on heads are = to factory spec therefore = amount of CFM
All I can find as a positive is one will experiance slower kick in the butt dyno until system is at a full pressure which at that point will be equal to the original manifold power.
Isn't it so, that until the intake on the heads themselves are inlarged to and at the same ratio as the New manifolds tubes, due to the increased volume they can only cause a miniscule stall?
Mike

 

I'm not gonna comment on the needswings manifolds, but I think the bottle neck on the factory ones limits the amount of air into the motor, I think by opening up the factory ones the available cfm flow is there, to allow the engine to injest about as much air as it can take in stock configuration.

 

I'm no expert, by any estimation, but I think you're jumping to a couple of conclusions that aren't necessarily true.

The first conclusion is that the NW manifolds provide greater boost pressure. That's definitely not true. There is no increase in boost. At first, I thought that there would be a drop in boost, but Rob @ NW tells me he saw no decrease in boost pressure.

The primary benefit of the NW manis is greater air flow - less restriction to the air flow, so the engine is not wasting as much power pulling the air in.

If you look at the back end of the SRT motor, you can see the downward tubes that flow air from the mani's into the head. These tubes are a major choke point. They neck down to about a 1" x 2" oval, before entering the Y pipe. Just by eliminating that choke point, you're increasing flow. That's why 240's manis are producing hp increases just under what the NW manis are doing. The second aspect of the NW manis that is "making" power is that they are smooth inside and teflon coated. By making the interior surfaces smooth, you reduce the friction experienced by the air flowing thru manis and reduce turbulence in the air flow: both of which sap power.

I'm sure there is more to it that this. Hopefully Rob will chime in.

 

First of all read my post. This is why I asked anserers to think. I never made the claim on the boost. Secondly A bottle neck as you put it STILL is pressent @ the head's intake. Right?
Whether your garden hose is 1/2" or 1" if it has a pin hole in it without increasing the pin holes size you still only allow a pin hole worth of H2O flow.
There have been many studies and none proven on the 2 methods of manifold air flow. While I am an advocate of the smooth theory, some state that the rough surface of manifold causes a "confused" fuel atom and an increase in disperssion causing more power so lets not use that as a theory, OK?
Mike

 

Montana, even though the "math" doesn't add up, do you at least concede that the NeedsWings CAI does improve performance?

 

The "rough surface theory" really only applies where the fuel is already in the air as in carb cars. Ours have no fuel until inside the cylinders. I'll go with smooth. Large gauge wire such as 0-gauge "bottlenecks" through relatively small inline fuses but you don't just make the whole current path small. Less restriction means more power. No reason not to improve airflow through the manifolds just because of restriction at the heads. I just installed the Needswings manifolds this weekend and I can tell you there is a substantial increase in power.

 

I do believe the "Rough surface theory" applies as well in better/or greater amount of air flow.
Assuming that air and water have similar flow characteristics, I read (some time ago) that the Navy found out that after applying a "Shark skin" textured coating to the bottom of some of their faster vessels, that it required less H.P. to move them thru the water.
I also believe that's why Richard Petty once tried installing a vinyle top to one of his mid 60's Plymouth race cars. (Which was promptly ripped off) as soon as he reached "High Speed Oval Track Speeds".
But like Montana, until some body can come up with a way to apply a "textured" surface inside the NeedsWings intake plumbing. I'll go with the "smooth" is best theory.

 

You seem to think pressure is related to volume it's not. When you use a compressor with the air attachment you flow high pressure but not volume. Needswings and 240 manifolds both show hp/tq gains which obviously show the heads are capable on injesting more air then the stock setup. So my first responce to you answered the question. You may register a high boost reading at the y pipe but the stock manifolds aren't flowing enough cfm once the intake valves open to fully fill the cylinders. Don't know what else to tell ya.

 

The sharkskin method on boats does not start to take effect until your in the 90mph range.

And you really see gains only after 100 mph and on very lite boats!

Since the advent of ventilated hulls having a rough surface is only beneficial on very light high speed boats.

And then only to get to the transition speed between a boat and a plane.
Once your going that fast there is no boat in the water....
Water will actually adhere to a waxed boat so thats why you actually never wax the bottom you take sand paper or a textured paint to the very last running surface...In Tunnel boat raciing you actually use a spray on wax to make the bottom and top of the boat as slippery in the air as possible...a product like Plexus...you could see gains of 3 mph doing this to fight air resistance....but thats at mid 150's around 92-100 a rough surface on the last running surface could net ya 1 mph..(on certain designs)..most of the time the rough surface just helps ya be quicker to your top speed by breaking up the adhesion of water to hull to get going but does nothing for top speed.
Otherwords rougher surface gets you better ET not better top speed.
Thats in the water world....

K.K.

 

The math doesn't add up to more POWER.
Please help me here.
I love the looks of the NEW Needswings manifolds. But no matter how I write it up it still comes out the same, No Extra Power.
If I am wrong please chime in but please think first.
Blower = same amount of CFM


Mike

I would like to add a few points on this discussion, please.

Blower= same amount of cfm.

NO, the cfm are the result of the blower and its speed IN ADDITION TO THE PRESSURE DIFFERENCE IT IS OPERATING AT> With low restriction manifolds the discharge pressure at the s/c would be lower as the pressure at the s/c wye and manifold will be more similar, without the restrictive frictional losses, and the s/c would be able to flow more CFM. More importantly at high flow rates the manifold will be seeing higher pressures if the s/c pressure is not changed.

Larger pipes and manifolds = < LBS Pressure and < CFM @ initial WOT

If this means that the pressure falls at the s/c per the above item, yes. Again the restriction from the air cleaner to the inlet valve is the sum of all the elements that retard the airflow. The piston moves downward and the atmosphere plus blower serve to move a charge of air into the cyclinder to fill the void. Reducing the resistance anywhere assists in getting more to burn into the engine.

Please remember that I got 1 extra psig at the manifold body by adding a second inlet CAI pipe to my Needswings set up to COUNTERACT the friction in the 3" pipe. I was measuring 30 inches of water vacuum at my throttle body on the dyno with the standard CAI installation. That alone gave me about 35 HP at about 2500 rpm, 12 HP at 6000.

Intakes on heads are = to factory spec therefore = amount of CFM
All I can find as a positive is one will experiance slower kick in the butt dyno until system is at a full pressure which at that point will be equal to the original manifold power.

The improved manifolds allow more airflow and have a tiny larger volume to assist in stabilizing the pressure fluctuations during the intake cycle of any given cyclinder. This is beneficial at engine speeds; at only 3000 rpm each inlet cycle occures in 90 degrees of a power cycle or about 0.010 seconds, for four cycle engines. That time is for the valve to open, piston to travel down and ingest a charge and the valve to begin closing. THats about 5 milliseconds at top rev!!!!!!!!!!! Restriction means something at thoes speeds.

Isn't it so, that until the intake on the heads themselves are inlarged to and at the same ratio as the New manifolds tubes, due to the increased volume they can only cause a miniscule stall?

I have ported the intake portion of the heads( 4 hours) and gained oodles of power by matching the manifolds and heads to the outline of the intake gaskets in an earlier post. I has 338 HP before I did a pulley with just an exhaust delete, CAI with one pipe and gasket matching of the head/manifold.

The fact that the intake can provide more air ( due to lower internal friction) will not promote a stall, quite the opposite. The larger volume increase will take longer to charge, but the higher flow rate will more than offset the difference.

Noteworthy is that the super charger will flow more air as its discharge pressure is lower due to both factors. IF the throttle is opened for more than 1/2 second, you will see a gain. Please note that the throttle takes that long to open as you DO NOT OPEN THE THROTTLE< THE COMPUTER DOES> and without a sprint booster you would not see that on a data logger like my Xeitronix. FYI when your car shifts the throttle CLOSES a goodly amount to soften the shift loads on the transmission. Bet you all never thought that did ya?

Its all good, I just had to comment on the discussion and illuminate some of the finer points, ENJOY. W Dy

 

First of all I get a kick out of you helped illuminate the Finer Points.
And your comment about the CAI, I would be the first to say I agree being if you look at my posts you will discover I was running dual intakes on my SRT long before you changed yours.
You are dead wrong about your flow rates in your first paragraph. Unless you are speaking off such miniscule numbers such as the numbers which are present due to the left hand manifold having all those welds in it, in comparison to the right hand side. It matters none whether you have free flowing air as long as at the end of the path the air is met by a bottle neck, not unlike the one that is present at the head.
Actually I didn't read your entire post. I am trying to understand and as usual some of you would rather argue, with as I like to put it with an empty weapon.
As far as whether or not I beleave the power increase as AMX asked I actually haven't seen those numbers.
And as Bulldog said about me being confused about pressure and volume , if he were to read my post again he may actually see that I didn't say that at all. It would appear it is he that is confused. Someone should explain to him when he speaks about "filling cylinders" that once you have acheived even 1lb of pressure what ever you are filling it IS FULL, hence pressure.
Thanks for trying to help but I need to get with thick glasses wearing nerd type to find out what I am questioning here...

 

I personally think Montana is so dang smart that he likes to ask questions that he knows the answer to, just to belittle and bash anyone that tries to help answer it. You truly get on my nerves. You are the most grouchiest MF on this forum.

 

Well, perhaps this will help. Here's a link to the thread about the manifolds directly to where Rob posted his dyno graph.

https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...&postcount=395

 

We are dealing gasses and they are compressable. 1 PSIG is full to some extent, but then a cyclinder filled at 5 PSIG would be filled 1.25 times as much as 1PSIG ( Please Note: PSIG and not PSIA). The pressure is just a measure of the amount of gas in a given space, more is more, assuming constant temperature for a given mixture of gas(es).

I have not decoded the bottle neck point and Guess that you may be referring to the head assembly of the engine. It is that at times but they open alternatley 3 times per revolution of the crank. ! ?

most grouchiest ???



Re.

Boyle's law (sometimes referred to as the Boyle-Mariotte law) is one of several gas laws and a special case of the ideal gas law. Boyle's law describes the inversely proportional relationship between the absolute pressure and volume of a gas, if the temperature is kept constant within a closed system.[1][2] The law was named after chemist and physicist Robert Boyle, who published the original law in 1662. The law itself can be defined as follows:

For a fixed amount of gas kept at a fixed temperature, P and V are inversely proportional (while one increases, the other decreases).[2]

Boyle's law (sometimes referred to as the Boyle-Mariotte law) is one of several gas laws and a special case of the ideal gas law. Boyle's law describes the inversely proportional relationship between the absolute pressure and volume of a gas, if the temperature is kept constant within a closed system.[1][2] The law was named after chemist and physicist Robert Boyle, who published the original law in 1662. The law itself can be defined as follows:

For a fixed amount of gas kept at a fixed temperature, P and V are inversely proportional (while one increases, the other decreases).[2]


Woody

 

A) Montana Crossfire asks rhetorical question.

B) Montana Crossfire dislikes furnished answers from contributing, knowledgeable members.

C) Montana Crossfire resorts to name calling and diatribes.

D) Montana Crossfire is universally respected as an authority on SRT6 subjects.

 

You are obviously a guy who likes to argue just for the sake of it. So I guess Needswings and 240 are liars?? along with several others who have seen improvement, but you know more because you're so smart

 

As Carter would say in Rush Hour...
I do not understand the words that are coming out of your mouth!

Just tell me what works!

 

Montana, I can't speak for the SRT's out there that have installed the NeedsWings CAI. But Gary (Valkryderguy) has one, and he took his car to the drags where it ran nearly 1/2 a second faster than the best times I've seen in any magazine roadtest for the automatic Crossfire.
Since the NA cars don't create the intake vacuum of a supercharged car, I'm going to assume it's less restrictive design, is allowing a larger amount of air to reach the engine at a higher velocity than the factories air cleaner does.

 

Montana mentions a bottleneck in the airflow after the intake manifolds, and I'm assuming that he's talking about the openings between the mani and the head. I'd like more clarification on this.

Looking at a pic of the mani, there are 3 holes in the bottom. The combined area of the holes far exceeds the cross-sectional area of the 3" pipe feeding the manifold. So how could those 3 holes be a bottleneck?

Is that what he's talking about?

 

Ooops. Double post. Deleted.