Question the church !
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,508
Likes: 34
From: VA
Question the church !
Question the Church part #2
In my effort to understand the leaning out problem with my car I relearned a great many things. One of the most important is to “question “the conventional thinking and another is to QUESTION THE AUTHORITY…..Your success depends on it at times.
I looked at the factory manual to understand the fuel system and it showed a return type of fuel regulation system. I would have stopped at that point if I knew better, but I did not know or stop there.
I pulled off the plastic shield under the rear of the car below the passenger seat. The fuel pump and stock regulator / reside there. I have a few photos in my gallery under the fuel section for your assistance and review.
The fuel regulator is the larger of the two canisters and it has four pipes. One comes from the fuel pump ( inlet ), and there is an outlet on the opposite end that feeds the engine with fuel ( outlet ). The other two fillings are in the center of the canister on each end. The larger of these if the bypass line that feeds fuel back to the tank and bleeds off pressure to regulate the 60 psig pressure.
The remaining line is smaller and has a ¼” fitting and on MY CAR, THIS FITTING IS FACING THE DRIVESHAFT area. According to the manual this line appears to me to be a pressure line that regulates the bypass function inside the regulator. More pressure would cause the regulator to pass more fuel to the tank and limit the pressure rise.
You may wanna see my signature and look at the you tube video at this point.
I pulled off the regulator pressure line (1/4”) and got suspicious, no gas and no gas smell?????????????? Ok so I added a fuel pressure gauge to that line and fed 12 volts to run the pump. In this fashion I could shut it off like NOW if need be. Gas is energy and that is dangerous – never do anything that you cant get away from if need be and the ignition key is miles away if you need to turn it off. [0.1 CEU for safety training ]. The pump started and hummed but the gauge did nothing. I had added an air conditioning gauge to the fuel rail to monitor the pressure; at this stage it was 60 psig.
So the little pipe did not monitor pressure and set the regulator. Getting brave, I got an air gun and set it to 10 PSIG and injected the air into the little hole. TAAAA DaaA as I like to say the fuel monitor jumped up to 70 psig. Resetting the air gun to 20 PSIG my current maximum boost, the fuel pressure responded and went to 80 psig. For the Dennis the Menace types out there if you block off the return line the pump has a limit of about 110 psig, more on that later.
So the small line was connected to the vapor recovery tank in the same area and the little line is vented to keep the pressure constant with the atmospheric pressure - - - - I guess. In any event if I feed air pressure into the hole the pressure rises almost exactly 1 to 1 PSIG with the ¼” pipe signal.
Now I gets moving real good cause I can taste the success and feel hungry - - - like munchies hungry. I hung the fuel gauge on the windshield wiper with a wire tie and added 16’ of ¼ “ fuel line to the engine where I added an additional fitting to the manifold for boost. I hope to be getting different manifolds soon and will do it better then.
Driving was interesting as the car really pulled at the high end even though I saw only 70 – 72 psig on the fuel line. I did not lean out and the in car F/A gauge was a happy 12.8. Sorta success as I wanted the full 80 psig on the fuel, this is to be taken under study; it may be a lack of delivery capacity.
So I have scratched the surface and saved myself about 300$ by not getting the FPR and other parts. The fuel enrichment works but Ill need to get the data logger up and running to understand more, details will be provided as they develop.
Ideally we will be able to get a fuel air mixture that is dynamically compensated by the boost. This will eliminate the errors of just adding fuel based on the RPM only, for the boost is dependent on the amount of throttle opening and air density at that moment.
Your favorite lightning rod, Woody
In my effort to understand the leaning out problem with my car I relearned a great many things. One of the most important is to “question “the conventional thinking and another is to QUESTION THE AUTHORITY…..Your success depends on it at times.
I looked at the factory manual to understand the fuel system and it showed a return type of fuel regulation system. I would have stopped at that point if I knew better, but I did not know or stop there.
I pulled off the plastic shield under the rear of the car below the passenger seat. The fuel pump and stock regulator / reside there. I have a few photos in my gallery under the fuel section for your assistance and review.
The fuel regulator is the larger of the two canisters and it has four pipes. One comes from the fuel pump ( inlet ), and there is an outlet on the opposite end that feeds the engine with fuel ( outlet ). The other two fillings are in the center of the canister on each end. The larger of these if the bypass line that feeds fuel back to the tank and bleeds off pressure to regulate the 60 psig pressure.
The remaining line is smaller and has a ¼” fitting and on MY CAR, THIS FITTING IS FACING THE DRIVESHAFT area. According to the manual this line appears to me to be a pressure line that regulates the bypass function inside the regulator. More pressure would cause the regulator to pass more fuel to the tank and limit the pressure rise.
You may wanna see my signature and look at the you tube video at this point.
I pulled off the regulator pressure line (1/4”) and got suspicious, no gas and no gas smell?????????????? Ok so I added a fuel pressure gauge to that line and fed 12 volts to run the pump. In this fashion I could shut it off like NOW if need be. Gas is energy and that is dangerous – never do anything that you cant get away from if need be and the ignition key is miles away if you need to turn it off. [0.1 CEU for safety training ]. The pump started and hummed but the gauge did nothing. I had added an air conditioning gauge to the fuel rail to monitor the pressure; at this stage it was 60 psig.
So the little pipe did not monitor pressure and set the regulator. Getting brave, I got an air gun and set it to 10 PSIG and injected the air into the little hole. TAAAA DaaA as I like to say the fuel monitor jumped up to 70 psig. Resetting the air gun to 20 PSIG my current maximum boost, the fuel pressure responded and went to 80 psig. For the Dennis the Menace types out there if you block off the return line the pump has a limit of about 110 psig, more on that later.
So the small line was connected to the vapor recovery tank in the same area and the little line is vented to keep the pressure constant with the atmospheric pressure - - - - I guess. In any event if I feed air pressure into the hole the pressure rises almost exactly 1 to 1 PSIG with the ¼” pipe signal.
Now I gets moving real good cause I can taste the success and feel hungry - - - like munchies hungry. I hung the fuel gauge on the windshield wiper with a wire tie and added 16’ of ¼ “ fuel line to the engine where I added an additional fitting to the manifold for boost. I hope to be getting different manifolds soon and will do it better then.
Driving was interesting as the car really pulled at the high end even though I saw only 70 – 72 psig on the fuel line. I did not lean out and the in car F/A gauge was a happy 12.8. Sorta success as I wanted the full 80 psig on the fuel, this is to be taken under study; it may be a lack of delivery capacity.
So I have scratched the surface and saved myself about 300$ by not getting the FPR and other parts. The fuel enrichment works but Ill need to get the data logger up and running to understand more, details will be provided as they develop.
Ideally we will be able to get a fuel air mixture that is dynamically compensated by the boost. This will eliminate the errors of just adding fuel based on the RPM only, for the boost is dependent on the amount of throttle opening and air density at that moment.
Your favorite lightning rod, Woody
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,508
Likes: 34
From: VA
Re: Question the church !
The fuel pump was running and the engine too depending on the particular test being run. I have some more photos to share
Pressure at idle is 50
Moderate driving off idle, pressure is 60
Boost at 10 and higher DRIVING pressure is 70 - 72
Boost idling at 10 and 20 #, pressure at 70 and 80
READINGS are psig measured at the fuel rail
Pressure at idle is 50
Moderate driving off idle, pressure is 60
Boost at 10 and higher DRIVING pressure is 70 - 72
Boost idling at 10 and 20 #, pressure at 70 and 80
READINGS are psig measured at the fuel rail
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,508
Likes: 34
From: VA
Re: Question the church !
YO, hey wait up ther DOg, we was robbed!
What up, you were going to increase the pressure and the 50 psig at idle is below the stock 60 psig?
Yeah, the regulator is smarter than a Fift Greader. Add pressure and the fuel pressure regulator output goes up. Why is idle showing 50psig??
The idle is seeing about 20 inches of vacuum or -10 PSIG at the regulator sense port so you drop to 50 psig fuel pressure. Whats that negative thinggy about?
There is no problem as the ECU controls the a/f at idle and it can and does correct for the reduced pressure. Wait the pressure is not less, 50psig and a -10 PSIG vacuum still give you a difference across the injector of 60 psig.
Nuff said. How do it know?????
Woody
What up, you were going to increase the pressure and the 50 psig at idle is below the stock 60 psig?
Yeah, the regulator is smarter than a Fift Greader. Add pressure and the fuel pressure regulator output goes up. Why is idle showing 50psig??
The idle is seeing about 20 inches of vacuum or -10 PSIG at the regulator sense port so you drop to 50 psig fuel pressure. Whats that negative thinggy about?
There is no problem as the ECU controls the a/f at idle and it can and does correct for the reduced pressure. Wait the pressure is not less, 50psig and a -10 PSIG vacuum still give you a difference across the injector of 60 psig.
Nuff said. How do it know?????
Woody
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 888
Likes: 1
From: St. Louis, MO
Re: Question the church !
Your a very clever and ingenious guy Woody, but 12.8 still seems a little high isn't 12.1-12.5 more the magic number for motor longevity?
J-fire he is tuning his car's air/fuel ratio by adjusting how much fuel pressure makes it to the injectors.(he is manually tuning his car)
the purpose is to keep the motor from running too lean and killing the engine. When you hear people say a air/fuel ratio of 11.5 whats basically being said is when your motor runs a combustion cycle there is 11.5 times as much air as fuel. When that number gets higher say over 13 to 1 ratio of air to fuel your running to lean and potential destroying your motor.
I hope this helps the confused understand.
Woody was that your Fast and the Furious explanation?(god that was hard to read)
J-fire he is tuning his car's air/fuel ratio by adjusting how much fuel pressure makes it to the injectors.(he is manually tuning his car)
the purpose is to keep the motor from running too lean and killing the engine. When you hear people say a air/fuel ratio of 11.5 whats basically being said is when your motor runs a combustion cycle there is 11.5 times as much air as fuel. When that number gets higher say over 13 to 1 ratio of air to fuel your running to lean and potential destroying your motor.
I hope this helps the confused understand.
Woody was that your Fast and the Furious explanation?(god that was hard to read)
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 888
Likes: 1
From: St. Louis, MO
Re: Question the church !
Woody i thought the big problem with running the stacked pullies was the ECU/map sensor could only read up to a certian PSI 22 wasn't it? and then it would throw a code. What elevation are you around woody?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 165
Likes: 1
Re: Question the church !
Interesting stuff. In my opinion even if the lean-out problems would be under control, it would be hard to fight against HEAT (IATs) with using 178 in combination with C3P-SC-Pulley. Timing will be pulled and I don't know if the results would be better in the end...
Last edited by SLK32Germany; Jan 13, 2009 at 06:55 AM.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,060
Likes: 2
From: Fairfax, VA
Re: Question the church !
Originally Posted by SLK32Germany
Interesting stuff. In my opinion even if the lean-out problems would be under control, it would be hard to fight against HEAT (IATs) with using 178 in combination with C3P-SC-Pulley. Timing will be pulled and I don't know if the results would be better in the end...
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,508
Likes: 34
From: VA
Re: Question the church !
I will try to address all the comments, in a row, here.
1 In my mind 12.9 or 12.1 to 12.5 are the same. Everything is moving around and any reading is a function of the instrument used to measure it and the point in time that you look at it. They are so close to ideal that they would defy improvement without an inordinate amount of work. ie not cost effective to me.
1A Do not know about boost codes, I got it off the car before I got that condition, May find out soon enough as I wanna run stacked with the present boost modified fuel pressure to get a chart recording.
2 After I get reliable operation a dyno is next, yes. The Egt I believe is another way to see the A/F and I have both a gauge and zeitronic d/l now, so trying to record and evaluate egt or 6 egts in not in my budget at this point.
3 My boost readings come with an elevation of about 500', baro pressure typically normal I believe 29.92 "Hg.
4 The stacked pulleys run up the s/c about 3 to 1 versis the 2.56 to 1 of a 185 set-up. Heating is a function of the efficiency ( fixed in our s/c ) and the adiabatic heating, of compression.
More boost is more heat, but I dont feel that my I/C is a limiting factor yet as the air temp especially now is very moderate, below 120F to date. My H/E is 3x the stock size , and is measured to flow 2x the water GPM of the LET unit I had. THe H/E is also positioned directly in front of the Main engine fan/radiator shroud. With my 180 degree thermostat, it keeps the temp gauge below 1/2 scale in the summer while driving.
More data when I upload the data logger results, Woody Be Happy
1 In my mind 12.9 or 12.1 to 12.5 are the same. Everything is moving around and any reading is a function of the instrument used to measure it and the point in time that you look at it. They are so close to ideal that they would defy improvement without an inordinate amount of work. ie not cost effective to me.
1A Do not know about boost codes, I got it off the car before I got that condition, May find out soon enough as I wanna run stacked with the present boost modified fuel pressure to get a chart recording.
2 After I get reliable operation a dyno is next, yes. The Egt I believe is another way to see the A/F and I have both a gauge and zeitronic d/l now, so trying to record and evaluate egt or 6 egts in not in my budget at this point.
3 My boost readings come with an elevation of about 500', baro pressure typically normal I believe 29.92 "Hg.
4 The stacked pulleys run up the s/c about 3 to 1 versis the 2.56 to 1 of a 185 set-up. Heating is a function of the efficiency ( fixed in our s/c ) and the adiabatic heating, of compression.
More boost is more heat, but I dont feel that my I/C is a limiting factor yet as the air temp especially now is very moderate, below 120F to date. My H/E is 3x the stock size , and is measured to flow 2x the water GPM of the LET unit I had. THe H/E is also positioned directly in front of the Main engine fan/radiator shroud. With my 180 degree thermostat, it keeps the temp gauge below 1/2 scale in the summer while driving.
More data when I upload the data logger results, Woody Be Happy
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,060
Likes: 2
From: Fairfax, VA
Re: Question the church !
I believe that the compressor efficiency is not fixed per se - it is a function ultimately of both compressor pressure ratio and airflow.
There is typically a small "island" where compressor efficiency is maximized - probably around 65% at the most for twinscrews, then decreasing as pressure ratio increases or airflow increases.
As for measuring EGT, this is typically done to see what effect decreasing the AFR has, as adding more fuel and adjusting timing has physical limits (that is, adding too much fuel and retarding timing too much can cause your cats to melt). It's probably more detailed than you want to get into at this point.
Are there any good dyno places in Prince William?
There is typically a small "island" where compressor efficiency is maximized - probably around 65% at the most for twinscrews, then decreasing as pressure ratio increases or airflow increases.
As for measuring EGT, this is typically done to see what effect decreasing the AFR has, as adding more fuel and adjusting timing has physical limits (that is, adding too much fuel and retarding timing too much can cause your cats to melt). It's probably more detailed than you want to get into at this point.
Are there any good dyno places in Prince William?
Last edited by sonoronos; Jan 13, 2009 at 09:12 AM.
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,508
Likes: 34
From: VA
Re: Question the church !
I can GIVE a BIG TWO THUMBS up for Currys Automotive of Sterling near the Dulles airport area. Nice people, do lots of Mercedes work and high end cars. Mustang DYNO.
They just opened a shop in Gainesville, where Iam at but have not gone to yet.
Update: GAINESVILLE
5611 Wellington Road, Unit 119
Gainesville, VA 20155
(703) 753-1650
fax (703) 753-1850
Be Happy Woody
They just opened a shop in Gainesville, where Iam at but have not gone to yet.
Update: GAINESVILLE
5611 Wellington Road, Unit 119
Gainesville, VA 20155
(703) 753-1650
fax (703) 753-1850
Be Happy Woody
Last edited by waldig; Jan 13, 2009 at 11:16 AM.