Having read about all the preferred products and the yeas and nays, I now have enough variety to keep me thoroughly arm weary for the forseeable future. I have a 2005 Alabaster Limited Coupe, 2nd owner, that had been apparently run thru a brush type car wash many times as there are numerous straight line marks (scratches) from front to rear. Having used Armstrong power with a number of products to no avail, I decided on getting a machine. The biggest concensus leans toward the Porter model 7424. I decided against it because I could not find one to "touchy feely" and didn't want to buy on line. I wound up buying an ATD 10511 variable speed machine for much less than the Porter. Thus far I am satisified with it. I have buffed out almost all the scratches and swirls without burning the paint.
Materials I have used both by hand and machine are: Turtle Wax Polishing Compound, TW Liquid Ice Clay Bar, Meguiar's No 9 Swirl Remover, Meguiar's Scratch X, Meguiar's Gold Class Paste Wax, 3M Scratch Remover, 3M Rubbing Compound #05973, 3M Swirl Mark Remover #06064, a 3M Hook-It 05717 with a 3M Pad 05725.

Hand applications were not satisfactory at all, and I was some what leary of machine rubbing wihout some expert advice. This I received from a many year paint shooter at a local NAPA store.He advised me of the care required to NOT burn the paint, the types of pads to use with the 3M compounds, and use or non use of wool bonnets, along with the rpms to use with the various compounds.
Having said all that, I still have a way to go to satisfy MY critical eye, but I'm a lot closer now than two weeks ago.
For Mike-in-Orange, I believe you are connected to Meguiar's in some capacity, so my question to you is, now that 3M has acquired Meguiar's, which products would you recommend for the various body/paint care that are going to be jointly marketed. Also, what are your honest feelings about the use of cornstarch as a finish?
thanks for your help. Oh, BTW, I use Tanner's Preserve for my leather.

John P
FTroopChief

 

John, I had to Google that tool as I'd never heard of it. Looks to be a high speed rotary. Just so you know, it's the high speed rotary that can very quickly and easily burn your paint. The Porter Cable 7424 simply will not.

Anyway..... it also looks as though you bought one hell of a collection of product to use with it. Honestly, I could have saved you a bunch of cash if you'd checked with me first since a bottle of M105 Ultra Cut Compound would have done the job for you. That's what I used with my rotary and a wool pad to get rid of 2 years worth of dealer lot hack work on my paint. Then again, I've got a fair bit of experience with a rotary buffer, otherwise I would NOT recommend that everyone just run out and buy one then start buffing away on their beloved Crossfire!

With regards to the use of cornstarch, it's a pretty old school approach and is used in a couple different ways to accomplish different things. Modern technology is a wonderful thing - consider the microfine, very uniform in shape and size, extremely hard abrasives in M105 or the polymer technology in protectants such as NXT Generation Tech Wax 2.0, Mother's Syn Wax, Zaino and others and I think you'll realize much better results than corn starch can offer. But I always tell people: if you've found a process you like, you've got a technique dialed in, and you're getting the results you want, then who am I to tell you you're wrong? I will, however, tell you flat out if that process or technique is potentially dangerous to the paint or there is something in the product you may not be fully aware of (good, bad or otherwise).

As for Meguiar's/3M - don't expect to see any unification of brands any time soon. 3M has told us time and time again that they are not going to touch the Meguiar's line. We are to remain an independant division, but 3M is going to give us the backing, both financially and via infrastructure, to expand more fully into foreign markets, more effectively advertise and market our products, etc. There isn't even going to be an open sharing of knowledge between our product development labs. The deal between Meguiar's and 3M is a bit unique - they even said there wouldn't be a deal unless Barry stayed on doing what he's been doing all along. They fully recognize the very unique position Meguiar's enjoys, not only from a market penetration standpoint, but from a customer loyalty perspective.

 

Mike, thanks for the quick reply. Not sure I understand what you mean by "high speed", do you have a reference RPM?
The ATD-10511 (Advanced Tool Design) is a 1000-3000 RPM machine
with a Rheostat style dial with #s 1 thru 6. I ran it at 1 and definitely lower than 2. The gentleman I purchased my 3M products from at NAPA could not have been more explicit about the damage that a high speed rotary could do.
All the other products I have were purchased for armstrong power using elbow grease before I bought the machine. I have been very careful and thus far have not had any problems. I am light handed from years of Pressure Suit maintenance, so I am not a hammer mechanic.
I am using the Black egg crate design sponge pads with velcro backing. I don't want a quick cut because the crossfire is small and it's hard to put paint back on.
By the way, the ATD company I am told also makes Makita and a variety of other brands.
Thanks for the 3M/Meguiars info, I will bookmark it for future reference. Money I spent on other products is not wasted
as I have other uses for it. I have accomplished pretty much what I wanted to without (knock wood) having to get car repainted.
thanks again

John P
FTroopChief

 

Mike you are 110% wrong about the Porter Cable! I say this with a chuckle, only I can burn the clear coat with a Porter Cable. There are limits on just how far you should go. I actually did burn through the clear coat of my wife's Mercedes trying to get a scratch out. Its there, you can see it and yes, I have already been sent to my room and punished for it.
F Troop I also have to add that Zaino does not make a great scratch remover, Their polishes are worthy of "greatness". Mother's, Meguiars and 3M have the best products for the money when it comes to scratch and swirl marks.
Pat

 

Mike I will be the first to admit I am not knowledgeable nor proficient in the use and application of today's epoxy, poly, super paints and finishes. Having said that, I tend to rely on craftsmen in their fields. The advisor that I bought the compounds from and bonnets was a many year painter that explained the properties to me and the proper use of surface finishes. He told me DO NOT go beyond 1750 RPM and do not use heavy pressure. The types of compounds and bonnets used with them. He said what works for an individual is fine and their preferences of products is in their skill. At this point I am satisified with my ADT machine and the products I have used. I am of course open to suggestion for other products.
You mentioned the Porter Cable 7424, the rage of many forums, and I'm sure it is an excellent product, but it's specs are 2500-6000 RPM.
Most bonnets have speed limitations of around 3000 RPM. My polisher is 1000-3000 RPM variable. I am looking for a for a finish (wax) product that will have first good looks, second ease of application and third duration of protection. Criteria means more to me than brand, as long as it doesn't have harmful properties.
Patpur, I concur with your choices of compounds, but now am in the waxing mode----your preferences??

John P
FTroopChief

 

Meguiars NXT 2.0.

Hands Down.

 

Thanks Maxichon, I'll give it a whirl. Need to put my best look forward.
John P
FTroopChief

 

For polishes I am stuck on Zaino Z-2 with a shot of Z-6 (Detail spray) after every polish and wash. It works for me, leaves no dust and you can even use it in the sun, I wouldn't recommend the Z-6 in the sun but if you're fast you can do it. The bottom line is find a product that works well for you, there are a ton of excellent polishes/waxes and use them regularly. Fine tune your wash,polish and detail habits from these forums and you can't go wrong.
Pat

 

It also is a random orbit polisher vs. a standard rotary polisher. This polishing action will not leave swirls like high speed rotaries.

 

The Porter Cable 7424 is a dual action random orbital and the speed range is 2500-6000 OPM (oscillations per minute) and it has a clutch so if you apply a lot of pressure it will stop spinning. A high speed rotary is a high torque, direct drive machine and it's action is measured in RPM (revolutions per minute). You an easily burn the edge of a body panel with one if you aren't extremely careful. There is a huge difference in the action of these two machines, in their ability to correct defects (the rotary is far better), in the learning curve (the 7424 is much easier to learn) and the safety factor (the 7424 is much safe - despite Pat's ability to burn his clear coat).

I'm not saying you shouldn't be using a rotary on your car. It sounds like you got excellent advice on proper use of the tool. You'd be amazed how many people just crank them up to max speed and have at it. You'd be even more amazed how many people make thier living using this tool but don't know how to properly use it to polish paint. Most are like bubba with a big hammer - it's pitiful.



Pat, just how the hell did you manage to burn your paint with the D/A? I've demonstrated this tool so many times I've lost count, and it's quite common to show how safe it is by leaning on the thing for a few minutes. I've never had a problem.

 

Sorry to post this here, but I met Bubba at our local 5* Dealership and he was indeed certified to work on my car. He removed the oil pan with a certifed brass machinists hammer to change the oil sensor that had a slight leak. The oil leak cost the dealer 24 Qts of Mob 1. a new oil pan, and some very hard feelings on my part. Atch pic is my garage floor the morning after.Comment is, "Don't Be a Bubba, and Don't Let Him Get Near Your Car"
Mike, are you saying the Porter Cable 7424 does NOT rotate, but merely Jitterbugs? Not being a SA, I really don't know. What pad or bonnet would you recommend using for polishing with a rotary? A natural lamb skin or a "Red" waffle sponge pad?

John P
FTroopChief

 

The Porter Cable vibrates, it definitely does not rotate (maybe "orbital" is the correct description here?). I found the red waffle pad to be a bit too soft, I like the grey and white waffle pads. I'm also gonna try some of their terry bonnets etc when I get half a minute to call Auto Geek. In all seriousness, you will love the Porter Cable. It is basically mistake proof (unless you are me) and you can also use it to buff those nasty hazy headlight covers. A little plastic polish and a PC with an orange cutting pad and those babies sparkle!
Pat

 

Sorry Pat, but the Porter Cable 7424, and Meguiar's G110, most definitely do rotate. But they also vibrate, oscillage, jiggle, jitterbug, whatever. Hence the term "dual action polisher". But a major safety feature is that when you apply a fair amount of pressure, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20lbs or so, it will stop spinning and just oscillate.

Mount a pad on the backing plate and then make 4 hash marks on the back with a sharpie. Turn the machine on and you can see it spinning, and you can plainly see the spinning slow down as you apply pressure. Lean the machine onto the edge of the pad and you'll see it stop spinning almost immediately. It will always oscillate, however, but for the most part it's still the spinning action you want present to get the work done.

Again, the biggest difference between these and the rotary is that the rotary has a lot more power, is direct drive, and lacks a clutch to stop the spinning action when heavy pressure is applied.

 

I stand corrected, your word is good enough for me. You are the detail expert here. I wasn't aware it went in circles too, I can't see that fast!
Pat

 

Well now Lads, I'm glad I started this....we have all learned something, and I have finally met the famous/infamous "Pat & Mike" I heard so many stories about growing up outside of NYC back in the 40s. Shure and begorra, it's been a pleasure.
One question that I didn't get a answer to tho, is when, where, and how to use a lamb's wool bonnet, speed etc, and should I comb it first? or just screw the bugger to the polisher and yell "Run Sheep, Run!!" TIA
John P
FTroopChief

 

Ah yes, the wool pad. The come in a variety of grades, from cutting to finishing. The cutting version gives you the ultimate cutting ability and should only be used with a rotary buffer to remove very severe defects or on extremely hard paint. Generally, though, it is used to remove sanding marks after painting a vehicle. Speeds usually range from 1200 to 1800 rpm during this process, again depending on severity of defect, hardness of paint, aggressiveness of compound, etc. Regardless, it tends to leave fairly severe holograms behind and normally is followed with a finer compound/polish/etc on either a wool finishing pad and then a foam pad, or multiple foam pads, with finer polishes still.

But that is a bit old school thinking. When we did the Alpine Electronics vehicles for the Consumer Electronics Show, we cut 1000 grit sanding marks with a wool pad and M105 Ultra Cut Compound, and then just used a soft foam finishing pad with a very, very fine cleaner polish - specifically M82 Swirl Free Polish - and finished with wax. BAM. It was just done - and gorgeous. M105 finishes down in a way that almost defies logic, and leaves almost no hologramming in the process. It's really cool stuff. The picture below is the side of the boat after using just M105 on the wool pad, rotary spinning at about 1200rpm. Remember, before this the whole thing was covered in 1000 grit D/A sanding marks! At this point there is no other lighter polish, cleaner, wax, sealant, etc. Nothing but a very aggressive cutting compound and a wool cutting pad. Not too shabby.

 

I just work here F Troop, Mike is the expert!
Listen to him. Currently I have my eye on some of those Terry bonnets they have at Auto Geeks. Up to now I have used the Orange cutting pad (foam) for problem areas and the white and dark grey waffle pads to buff with. In all seriousness though listen to Mike he know what he's talking about.
Pat

 

Gentlmen, I respect both of your expertese, experience, and hands on application of various products and applicators. It's obvious that I am way behind the learning curve when it comes to the new technology in paints, cleaners and protectorants. The Crossfire has reawakened my interest in my 2nd largest investment and keeping it in top notch condition, and learning about the new miracles on the market.
Having said that, heat causes burning, melting or causing paints to fail, and my information from masters in the field have told me that wool bonnets can very easily increase heat. The new sponge applicators seem to be filling the void. On the other hand, I have been told that the new terry cloth applicators can cause scratching. I have not had any experience with them and would like to hear more on them because sponge applicators are expensive, but they do infact seem to dissapate the heat generated by a rotating bonnet.
Thanks guys, you're both great and informative.

John P
FTroopChief

 

Expensive is a relative term. I may have gotten a killer deal on my Crossfire when I paid $21,000 for a car with 32 miles on the odometer and a $40,000 sticker price, but $21,000 is still a fair chunk of change. To think about spending $14 on a good quality foam pad or $8 on a lesser quality pad that may inflict some fine marring or just not work as well as the other pad is, to me anyway, a false economy.

As far as heat issues go, yes, heat is not a good thing. I use a laser surface temp guage when I work with a rotary buffer and keep my surface temps below 130F. You can reach that temp fairly quickly even with a foam pad if you aren't careful. Machine speed and pressure will raise temps pretty quickly regardless of pad, chemical, etc.

For the record, nothing touches the paint on my car unless it's a quality wool or foam pad on a machine, a foam or microfiber pad for hand application, and microfiber towels for product removal. Terry cloth, especially when used aggressively such as when trying to remove defects, has some bite of its own and can easily introduce fine scratches. We commonly see people trying to remove scratches with our ScratchX product who claim the product left their paint hazy. Ask that person if they used terry cloth and they always answer in the affirmative. Have them follow up with a foam applicator pad and they're happy campers - the hazing is gone. Happens all the time, especially on dark paint.