I warn you, this post is long and boring. And written mainly to myself!


I had not had a speeding ticket in over 20 years. One day last Sept I was driving alone back from Custer South Dakota to Lynnwood Wa, about 1250 miles. I figured I would just stay at 7 over the limit. In Wyoming the limit is 75 so 82 seemed plenty fast, I had never ever been stopped for less than 10 over, and even though I had all day get home, it is a long drive. At 7 over in that part of the country you are just going with the flow, you can find a big gap in traffic (like no one within a mile or two, sometimes more) and have the road to yourself. So I set the cruise for 82, turned up the stereo and was in my kind of heaven. Just east of the Montana border on I 90 in the middle of nowhere I start down a steep hill, the car picked up 2 MPH and before the cruise control could correct, I see a Stater make a wild u-turn through the medium, pull behind and pull me over. He walks up to my window and says, "Do you know how fast you where going" (real original guy) I said 7 over Sir, he said, "NO YOU WERE GOING 9 OVER" this guy looks about 12 years old to me and he is screaming at me for no reason that I can figure out, but he has a gun and badge. So I say ok 9 over if you say so, so what? Well, Doogie tells me that Wyoming has a zero tolerance law for speeding and that I was getting a $90.00 ticket. He then takes my license and registration and goes back to his car, for nearly half an hour. Must have been checking the terror watch list. He comes back, hands me the ticket and tells me "he is tired of rich guys in their fancy cars speeding in his state" and brags about putting a guy doing a 109 in a 350Z in jail. At this point I admit he had gotten under my skin. I say Sir I just took a ticket from you. Did I try to lie my way out of it? He said, "No". Was I putting anyone in danger, (on an empty interstate on a sunny morning) he said, "No" I asked if I could ask a question he said,"ok" I asked if he new of any other state that wrote tickets for 9 over? He said, "Wyoming has a zero tolerance for speeding" and showed me that on his ticket book, it said 1 over was a $25.00 dollar fine. ONE OVER! I told him with all-do respect Sir that law is chicken ****. That Wyoming may have no tolerance but his radar unit did, it is not that accurate, and that is why other States will not ticket you for under 10 over if that is all you are doing. Well, he really got defensive and said, "The State needed the money for schools" I responded by saying that he then was nothing more than a tax collector with a gun and a fancy uniform. I, in my life have never met a State Patrol Officer that I did not respect, if they wrote me a ticket or not. The best cops ever in my book. Until last Sept in Wyoming. I told him in my opinion he was less than a man (twelve year old looking cop with a big gun and what look like some kind of cavalier for a patrol car would probably be touchy on the subject of his manhood) a man would not write another man a ticket for 9 over going down a steep hill, on an empty interstate. Or work for a department with a zero tolerance policy. That a zero tolerance policy meant his boss did not think he was smart enough use his brain, and that I was in complete agreement. I ran up my window got in gear, and left Wyoming as fast as I could, really pissed. A couple hundred miles later, I calmed down and started to think about the situation. First I was not proud of being goaded into losing my temper by Duggie, next I thought about Doogie's situation. He is in a State that has a very well armed civilian population and he is having to enforce a zero tolerance speeding law among some of the most, not going to be pushed around by the Government folks, you ever met. So Doogie, if you are still alive. I am sorry for what I said to you. I am not a rich guy and my fancy car cost lest than $20,000.00. And Doogie Please tell your boss, that I live in Washington and own property in South Dakota so I travel through your State a couple times a year. My wife and I go to Yellow Stone every other year, we like to hang out in Cody, and up till now we have spent a lot of money in Wyoming. No more. I will buy gas and snacks In Montana and see if I can make it through your state without stopping. If I can't make it, I will buy as little gas as possible, to get to SD. No more lunches, no more motels, no more dinners, no more drinks, no more t-shirts, no more tourist traps. We will still drive through your State, just to use up your infrastructure. Even though the big winners will be my insurance company, I hope that $90.00 will help the schools there allot. Maybe you could teach economics, to whoever came up with Zero tolerance for speeding as a way to raise revenue for schools. You know if you had put a tole both on I 90 and charged to drive across your beautiful state I would have paid it happily. Instead you mess with my driving record for a lousy 90 bucks. Not to mention the danger you are putting your troopers in, making them enforce a totally asinine law. They have no way of knowing the mental state of the person you are forcing them to extort money from. But then it won't be you that gets killed now will it. Doogie please tell your boss this and be careful.

Sorry for the rant but for some reason this ticket and Doogie have really been bothering me for a long time and I had to get it off my chest. It changed my attitude about cops, and that is not fare to the rest of them and not reasonable of me. So I took advantage of this post to vent. I really have always been treated more than fairly by the State patrol officers I have met especially in this part of the country. When I was younger I met a lot of them.

 

I would be willing to bet that the zero tolerance speeding law only applies to cars with out of state tags on them.

 

The only issue I have with your post (because I am 100% with you otherwise) is that traffic Radar IS accurate to within 1 mph. While it IS true that it can return a reading of less than your actual speed, it will not return a reading of more than your speed.

I certify traffic radar as part of my job. Every Kustom and Decatur radar out there rounds down to the nearest 1 mph. The circuit measuring the doppler effect is VERY accurate. And in Georgia, the unit itself has to be certified as accurate once a year. In nine years of certifying radars, I have never seen ONE of them inaccurate. I HAVE seen them come in with defects that cause them to have poor range, but have not seen one that is inaccurate.

Even so, a 1 mph ticket? Total bull ****.

 

That is fascinating, I had no Idea it was that accurate. I am always grateful for information from someone with hands on experience.
I guess I owe Doogie another apology. But he is not going to get it.

 

I think you have some built up anger you need to release. It's not good to bottle all that up for all this time. You could easily turn into one of those psycho crazy people.

 

I have written a long post on understanding traffic radar, but have not posted it yet.

It is written from the technical aspect, not the legal aspect. I don't intend to make it easier for people to evade traffic radar, just to understand it limitations and oddities.

Just can't make up my mind if it's the right thing to do. I am intending to ask the law enforcement members here what they think.

I'll get around to that, sooner or later ... unless they chime in here!

 

Hey that might be a good look for me. I could add it to my card.

Zorro, Psycho Crazy Person.

Why yes officer that is my ID.

 

Make it part of your title, up where your avatar goes!

 

ROTFLMFAO.......... And have a hospital bracelet on your wrist as you hand him the ID.

 

Im trying to find a picture of Antonio Banderas in joker makeup.

Being named Zorro was a lot easer when I looked more like Antonio Banderas than that Hannibal Lecter guy.

 

Good information to know. I do know the last ticket I had the law allowed the officer to drop the limit by no more than 10mph...according to the cop.

Either way, I've got a number of questions. Not that they will matter regarding the accuracy.

When you test, are these under optimal conditions w/o other automobiles around?

If other cars are around, what is the ratio of errors to good readings?

Is the testing done on a mount, hand held, or both?

If mounted, is it in a car or a platform?

Do environmental conditions (heat/cold) have any bearing on the longevity of accuracy?

How often do these devices get calibrated and how often are they tested for calibration?

Is the line of sight straight and true?

What amount of "surface cover" (if that is the right terminology) is required in order to certify the reading as accurate?

 

The procedure we follow is what the manufacturer specifies, so please keep that in mind as you read this, ok?

Also:
The state of Georgia requires (and I do not have the wording of the law in front of me) that the radar is "calibrated by an FCC licensed technician using instruments that are A) calibrated in the last year; B) hold a manufacturer's assurance of reliability of accuracy;and C) calibrations must be NIST traceable." Each certificate must be witnessed by a someone other than the calibrating technician or the officer using the radar and must be notarized.

So, here we go...

When you test, are these under optimal conditions w/o other automobiles around?
Having any other cars or traffic around doesn't enter in to it! (Surprised? Read on).

If other cars are around, what is the ratio of errors to good readings?
This does not apply, again, read on.

Is the testing done on a mount, hand held, or both?
If mounted, is it in a car or a platform?
The tests are done stationary with the radar unit mounted in the car most of the time.

Do environmental conditions (heat/cold) have any bearing on the longevity of accuracy?
No. No effect on doppler readings unless you are passing the signal thru vast areas of the atmosphere. As you know, traffic radar is a "under a mile" kind of thing. (And in our tests, it's an "under 2 feet" kind of thing.)

How often do these devices get calibrated and how often are they tested for calibration?
You mean my test equipment? Every year they, by Georgia law, are sent to the manufacturer for calibration.

Is the line of sight straight and true?
Sure is. Since it's under 2 feet in the calibration test!

What amount of "surface cover" (if that is the right terminology) is required in order to certify the reading as accurate?
About 3 square inches. (I have your attention now, don't I?)

We do not drive cars at the radar to calibrate them! That would be TERRIBLY inaccurate. Mathematics can tell us just how the radar operates and what we expect to see. (That is part of my long diatribe on traffic radar that I have not posted yet. I can see that I MUST post it now!)



Now, let me describe just what we do.

1) Using an HP microwave frequency counter, we measure the signal's frequency coming out of the antenna to within 1 megahertz.
This measurement is entered on the calibration form.

2) We enter this frequency into a Halyard Traffic Radar Calibrator. We now measure the signal from the antenna using the Halyard. This is to measure the strength of the radiated signal, the thing here is to see if the level is within specifications. This does not impact accuracy of speed readings, but range. Of course, we are also checking to see if it is exceeding licensed or rated power. (They NEVER do!)

3) We now, using the Halyard, choose "tuning fork" mode. We now measure the frequency of the officer's calibration tuning forks. This will be between 3500 and 7000 hertz, depending on the speed the fork is intended to indicate for the frequency that this particular radar operates at.
These measurements are entered on the calibration form.

4) Since the frequency the radar is running has been entered, the Halyard can determine what speed the fork SHOULD indicate on the radar and it displays this speed as well.
This measurement is entered on the calibration form for each of the tuning forks.

5) For each tuning fork:
The tuning fork is excited (we hit it on something) and placed within 2 feet of the antenna. The radar should read the speed from (4) above.
The speed the radar indicates is entered on the form. If the speed does not match exactly the speed in (4) above, the radar fails certification and must be returned to the manufacturer for repairs.



So, what do tuning forks have to do with traffic radar? I assume by your questions, you already know the answer. For everyone else, it has to do with the "doppler effect", which you can google on line.

I know this is almost an incomplete answer to your questions. Problem is, the explanation, to be complete, of what we do and why involves a bit of math and some RF and doppler theory. I go into that in my diatribe on Radar. I'll post it in a day or two... after I proof it again, ok?

For now, just know that the RF frequency the radar operates on and the speed of the car we are watching determine the doppler shift the radar will see. THIS is why we indicate the frequency of the radar, the frequency of the fork and the speed indicated. We then check to see what the radar reports when subjected to that EXACT doppler shift by the fork. If it does not agree with the math - it fails certification.

It is WAY past time for bed here....

 

Pizzaguy, I got a ticket awhile back when I was passing a 18 wheeler. (im terrified of 18 wheelers). I got clocked at 80 in a 65. Do the radars have a scope on them? How did he get me in my six and not the giant 18 wheeler next to me? This was near the end of a hill and going back up another hill. I know that 18 wheelers gain speed to make it up the next hill. I was not flying past this 18 wheeler as he could not have been going slower than 75. Some people are scared of the dark other are scared of spyiders im scared of 18 wheelers.

 

Or half a pair of handcuffs with a little bit of cut chain hanging from it.
Sounds like suicide by cop, or the best video on u-tube ever.

 

No, no scope on them. But yours is a good question.
Lasers can be pointed at a specific target, but not so for Radar.

USUALLY, the largest target is what the radar will "lock" on to. This is because it presents the strongest signal to the comparator in relation to the ground reference. But if you are close enough to the radar, and if there are "few enough" other echos for the radar's DSP to sort thru - there is a way he can "lock" on to you. It is called "fastest" mode. This is not something all radars can do, but many can. In this mode, the radar will ignore all but the fastest echo. Again, it's performance can be somewhat limited - that is, you have got to be close to him (relatively speaking) and there usually can't be too many echos to sort thru... but it can work.

Another way he can get you is to observe you speeding faster than the semi, taking the speed of the semi and ticketing you for the speed of the semi. (Since he knows you are going at least that fast). Now, this technique is not legal in Georgia. Officers are required and trained to:

1) Observe your speed in the radar's "Target" display.
2) Hear the sound of the doppler shift in the radar's speaker.
3) Observe and identify that it is YOU and not possibly anyone else that the radar is tracking.

So, in Georgia, he has to lock on to you. I cannot speak for other state's laws. I know this, because we replace a LOT of radar unit speakers. We charge $4 to $10 for the part and $90 labor. I questioned an officer why he was so upset I didn't have his particular speaker in stock; I indicated he could still write speeding tickets. I was wrong, he explained, "Mark, I have to SEE your speed in the display and HEAR the doppler noise in the speaker and make an ABSOLUTE determination that it is YOU I am tracking. And I must be able to say this in court."

(This is not to say that all officers are this honest - I am just relating an experience from work here, ok?)

You are probably wondering what I mean by "hearing the doppler shift". See, the speaker is fed with the signal of whatever the radar is "locked on to". And with only little experience, you can associate the sound you are hearing with what the target is doing. It is hard to explain here, but this is part of how the officer can be sure he is tracking you and not someone else.

As the radar signal bounces off the vehicle, it takes on a doppler shift equal to your speed. But it does more than that... while the motion of your car "doppler shifts" the radar signal - vibrations also doppler shift the signal.

I have sat on the side of the road and listened as a semi approaches me. As the driver revs his engine and shifts, the noise of his engine vibrates the truck. The radar signal is "doppler shifted" by THIS motion as well, the motion of the vibration of the truck. When the signal is fed to the radar speaker, I can sit there and listen to him going thru his gears.



But by no means is any part of this post intended to give you the idea that an officer is all-powerful, or all-knowing because he has a radar in his car. Fact is, my long post about radar discusses the things that radar CAN'T do and an officer CAN'T DETERMINE. It is for this reason I am shy about posting it all after all. I don't want to look like I am educating people on how to avoid the law!

Still can't make up my mind if I should post it.

I would like PM's from any officers here with their thoughts on the matter.

LAST EDITED AT 15 PAST THE HOUR.
Please remember, as you read this, I am NOT a police officer, but a technician!

 

I wanted to say something that I had forgotten about. In the first post, the officer is said to have made a reference to "rich guys". This would make me wonder about that officer's integrity. Am I the only one who has a problem with the officer saying that?

Am I the only one who would point out to the officer that I paid less for my sports car than any new Harley he sees on the road?

(Not that it is the officer business, but it just seems to me a good thing to make the guy understand that I do not live on the income of the average $40,000 sports car driver. Even a $15 ticket would mess me up - so cite me for failure to signal a lane change and not 85 in a 70, ok?)

 

If you got a ticket for the speed the semi was going then you got of lightly, why not fess up and send in the balance of the fine. The state could probably use the funds.

 

I didn't get a ticket for the speed but he left me off with a no seatbelt ticket. I thanked him and payed the ticket. I don't bullshit people and I know I was speeding and I got lucky because a no seatbelt adds no points. I would like to get as much information about police and radars and everything. I use to have that hate every cop but now as I learn more and more I realize to dislike the guy behind the uniform and not police as a group.

 

I bought a valentine 1 to protect against radar. It works pretty well. At least the cops here don't have lasers, then I'd be screwed.

Pizzaman, awesome info, and I hope you do post the thread about it because I'm very interested. I'm not going to lie though, I am interested on the point to avoid tickets, but none the less very interested.

I do have a question, like I said, I have and love my valentine radar detector. It is supposed to be one of the best on the market. But how much faith can I put into it that it will let me know ahead of time that there is a police guy checking people's speeds. I know the instant on is harder to find, etc, the basics. But how much do they REALLY help? If you know.

And zorro, I kind of know how you feel, dealing with a policeman that just doesn't seem like a nice guy. I got a ticket in my old car from a guy like that, I was definitely speeding and accepted that, but the guy was a ****** bag. :P

 

Not all that familiar with the detectors. You'd be better off waiting for a "consumer report" kind of post by those who own them! They can be quite effective. You can sometimes get indications from farther away than the radar will lock on to you, even. But again, I have never owned one.

I don't speed THAT much, and I know where they sit, anyway, so I know where to be extra careful around here. (There is also the fact that my signature is on a LOT of the calibration certificates in this area ---- provided I am not really being stupid or dangerous, I often get a wave and a smile instead of a ticket. Or a "watch it" over the state band channel if I am in the company van.)

Yea, the instant on (actually called the "HOLD" button by most radar manufacturers) is hard to get around.

A big part of avoiding tickets is to develop a "feel" for areas that are preferred by officers to sit and watch. Like the bottom area between two hills (and school zones - where no sane adult speeds, anyway.)