C'mon, Dallas, there IS a right and wrong and I didn't decide what it is. That was set by God and if you don't believe in God then its not my fault. And Im no preacher or thumper, I just know right from wrong (even though im far from perfect at anything).

So is my fraternal twin brother and he does also.

I never listen to 'talk radio' I keep music on all day. Im not a political minded person by nature, I just hate to see the country fall for ill minded thinking politicians like Kerry. He is so left it is pathetic and almost makes Clinton look moderate.

Im sure there are many 'non-religious' Republicans out there if that makes you feel any better. Its all about keeping America a great country and not succumbing to the united nations compromising way of doing things. If you love America (And Im sure you do) then you should be concerned that the democrats wish for this country to think 'global' and forget the word patriotic or American. They wish us to be more like germany and france who have become passive over-tolerant wimps who have no defence to terrorism. Of course America isn't perfect, but it sure beats those spineless countries who think they are superior but really aren't.

 

[quote="Danwell
C'mon, Dallas, there IS a right and wrong and I didn't decide what it is. That was set by God and if you don't believe in God then its not my fault. And Im no preacher or thumper, I just know right from wrong (even though im far from perfect at anything).

.[/quote]

Well, many Liberals don't believe in the death penalty....and they want gun control. Doesn't that make them MORE moral since God says "Thou shalt not kill"? Many Liberals are supporters of the U.N. and globally minded....doesn't God say "Love thy neighbor"? Maybe Liberals are MORE moral than you.....or atleast they THINK they are. Just as YOU think YOU are more moral.

Everyone views ethics and morals thru their own filters (religious, education, experience, background..etc). As long as we can agree on some basics, I think we should just live and let live.

Me personally? I think the U.N. is dangerous to U.S. autonomy. I believe in the death penalty. I support a strong military. I support seperation of church and state. I believe in gay rights. I support legal immigration but tougher borders. I don't think we should be the world's police force, but we should help when genocide is happening. I think abortion should be legal (up to a point) but adoption should be encouraged. And I support the Fair Tax. What does all that make me?

You said earlier:
.................................................. ....
"From what ive observed this is the Democrats wishes:

Allow same sex marriages (to help water down normal life and confuse kids on what is normal and what is perverted)"
.................................................. ......

So your brother is perverted? A moral pervert? I don't understand that. Did your parents not do a good job and make him gay? Of course not.....he was born that way. That's nature and nature is not perverse. What's perverse is the angst and pain, scorn and shame we feel growing up....that's what can make a person immoral. Not their sexuality.


Dallas

 

Too much partisanship. Everything here is Liberals (read Dems) want/believe this and Conservatives (Repubs) want/believe that.

Problem is, that's not the way the world works. Very little in life is so clearly delineated.

I'm a staunch conservative: anti-abortion, pro second ammendment; pro catpital punishment; pro small government; I don't think big business, by and large, is THE enemy; I think English should be the national language; I don't think illegal aliens should get ANY public benefits except a bus ride back to the border or a plane ride and parachute back to the desert.

However, I would like to see a common sense approach to preserving the environment, which the Cons don't seem to have. I DO want to see funding increased for inner city schools. I DO think SOME public assistance programs are both effective and needed.

That said, I have yet to find a single candidate, in my 30 years of voting, that exactly matched my views on everythng. So voting is a compromise. EVERY candidate has some views I disagree with, and in almost every election EVERY candidate has views I disagree with sharply.

I have voted for a Republican presidential candidate every time since the early 70's. This time around, though, I'm not voting for the Repulican candidate. I just cannot. In my opinion. Bush has been an unmitigated disaster in the job, and every day it looks worse.

Problem is, I can't stand Kerry, but there needs to be a change. I really would wish the Republicans could and would find someone else to run than Bush, but that's not how the system works.

As it is, my vote really doesn't count anyway, so I can stay away from the voting booth and not feel too guilty about not doing my part. Maryland's electoral votes have gone to the Dems, by a WIDE margin, since the beginning of time, and now that we have the touch screen voting, the dem machine here will ensure it stays that way forever.

But folks need to wake up and see Bush, and his cabinet, for the flawed administration that it is. REAL MEN seem to like him 'cause he's a tough talker. What we DO know is that he's got us stuck to a tar baby, and if he's got a real, workable plan for getting us unstuck, he's keeping it to himself. Please, I really am open to having my mind changed on this...Bush supporters, please articulate the workable plan for our getting out of there, and point out actual progress being made in that direction.

Look at this and other threads...more and more the Bush 'supporters' aren't supporting him, his policies, his actions so much as they're attacking the Liberals. In other words, it's not about his actual actions or competence, it's simply partisanship.

 

So that's the answer, dont' vote and everything will work out. if you don't vote don't complain!!!

Or better yet vote for kerry, we will then crawl back to the UN and beg them to take over the security of our countryand the world, and then bow to the French and Germans. What a world we are in for if kerry wins, hold on to your wallet and build a bomb shelter, with him and Jane in the white house it won't stand for much anymore, just wimpy "Americans"!!!

 

 

Okay, no problem... but it's something I didn't need to know about.

Why do you and many other gay's have to make a point during the course of a spirited conversation, to bring up your sexuality???

Morals, politics or whatever... who cares with who or what you sleep with??? I never figured that one out.

I can talk about morals or any other subject without letting the world know if I'm hetrosexual. bi, gay, retro or whatever else you can come up with. It's no one's business and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I'm holding on tight... here come the flames.

 

It has nothing to do with the topic at hand?

C'mon, AZ, cut WD a little break here... Danwell's the one who brought up same-sex marriages earlier. If I'd jumped in on that topic, I probably would have mentioned it, too.

It's not like he was trying to throw his sexuality in anyone's face. The fact that he's gay has a little bearing on the topic being discussed, I'd think.

Not to belabor the point, but suppose as an example someone said something like "allowing black people in our schools will hold back our children's education." Would it bother you if a black man answered "I'm black, and my children are just as smart as yours!" Would he somehow be "flaunting" his blackness? It seems to me that person would just be showing why he may have some particular insight into the subject.

 

I agree and that was the point I was trying to make. I was only wondering why it has to be brought up in "any" conversation. I have never felt the need to state my sexuality when talking about anything. IMHO the same point could of been made without declaring one's sexuality... no matter who brought up the topic of gay marriges etc.

No it would not bother me at all... but I would think to myself, "why is this man qualifying his statement with I'm black"? I can see his color. Are we getting too PC today that you have to be black, gay, handicapped or whatever to fully understand what people are saying? If you have something say, just say it. I'm a fat guy... so I understand. Drop the "fat guy" part and it still reads, "I understand".

There was no intent to slam or judge anyone for their beliefs or lifestyle. If it was taken that way, I apologize.........

 

How about places like, oh, here, where it's not so obvious?

Now, I'm completely guessing here, but it seems to me that people in conversation, very often, will say what's different about them that makes them an "expert" on a particular subject. For example, at work I'll often say things like "I've done a lot of work with Cisco equipment, and I think a 6913 router would be the best choice for what we're trying to do." It's just a way of establishing my credentials. I *could* just say "I think a 6913 is the best choice," but that really doesn't carry the same weight.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't people who think their sexuality is the single most fascinating and important thing about themselves, and bring it up in every conversation. However, I really think those are a small minority.

I totally understand that you don't need to bring up your sexuality in conversation... but if you're one of an overwhelming majority, there's not much of a need for it. If you're straight -- well, people just naturally assume you're straight. There's no need to say it, because that's what they're thinking already. Most gay people have to assume that the other person thinks they're straight. If they don't say otherwise, the other person will never know. I think, quite understandably, a lot of gay people feel a need to make sure the other person knows that's not the case. You may not give a damn one way or the other (and I think that's great), but there are a lot of people who do.

 

So help me out here...

�cbecause a person is gay or in the minority, they have to make it known who or what they are to be credible or to get their point across in a "non-technical" conversation? Speak your piece, voice your opinions... most people really don't care who or what you are, that's all I'm saying. You don't have to tell me you're black for me to believe what you are saying about your kids being just as smart or tell me you're gay and have morals for me to believe you when talking about homosexuality and morals. It's more about how and what you say that make's one believable. I just don�ft think a person has to qualify themselves to debate non-technical subjects.

Simply put�c a statement like:

�gI know Mc�fD�fs food makes people fat.

to me is far more convincing than:

�gI�fm fat�c I know McD�fs food makes people fat�h.

Why does the fat guy have to qualify his statement? Is he trying to make an excuse for being fat, seeking sympathy or what?

The next time I'm in a group of Gay�es, Black�es, Mexican's or whatever... do I need to express my sexuality or ethnicity to get my point across to be credible? For what it's worth, I don't think so. Just keep private what should stay private and the obvious will show through on it's own.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.... :wink: :wink: :wink:

 

Liberals moral? Nah, they just love the thought of convicted killers on the street, AND/OR our taxes supporting the criminals the rest of their lives while they sit in an air-conditioned prison playing pool and watching tv with 'the guys'. Liberals are all about punishing the innocent and tolerating the guilty....open your eyes. There is a double standard here. Here is an example.... The Palestinians can pretty much blow up all the innocent Israelies they want BUT when Israel retaliates after taking all the crap, they are labled the 'bad guy' by liberals. DOUBLE STANDARD!!! So, here in America when 911 happened, should we have just tried to 'love the terrorist into being nicer'? Nope, they crossed the boundry and we are retaliating and the libs are crying and saying we are the bullies? THAT IS RUBBISH!!!

The U.N. and globally minded people are usually either agnostic or new-agie people who don't actually love their neighbor, as thyself, they are usually self-absorbed, godless individuals who think disorder is okay in society. They probably like disorder in society because it keeps the need for their big government to slam down on everyone and kill all aspecs of freedom for everyone, even the good citizens. They like to punish everyone for what the lowest common denominator does.

True enough, im into live and let live pretty much except for certain things like murder/rape etc.... As far as basics, I think we all agree the Crossfire is a very nice vehicle so everyone here is still a family of Crossfire owners whatever their political beliefs

Hmmm, so far so good....

Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values...
(Its all here)
http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/separation.html
http://www.no-apathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

What are gay rights? Should gays have more "rights" than non-gay citizens? We all have our rights so why should gay people have more and be treated above the others?

Maybe you are you refering to the right to gay marriages? Well if God had okayed a man marrying a man he would have said so in the bible...... But it does say.....
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanders nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Legal immigration? All I know is there are way too many mexicans and others over here and they have became a liability, not an asset to this country. They get over here, pop out a baby and then get free medical and many other free support that the real Americans get stuck footing the bill for. Texas and other states are oversaturated with foriegners on the governments *** and im tired paying hard earned money in taxes to support them when the money could be used in a better way like to keep the borders from crossers. I am glad you support tougher borders.

True enough. The world doesn't appreciate the USA anyway. France never really thanked the US and England for saving them from Germany. I also think America should only send foreign aid to our real friends. Forget the countries that bash us and our fight against terrorism.

But what about the"Thou shalt not kill" verse in the bible you mentioned earlier? Also if someone doesn't want kids, then don't have 'em. Are people so sex crazy that they don't know how to plan ahead and not get someone pregnant? "Whoops, I accidentally created a life, oh well lets just kill it" Pretty sad. By the way it is odd that gays are usually for abortion even though they don't need to use it....

Hey, if it is about lower taxes then im for it And what does all that make you? A guy who lives in Atlanta Ga and owns a Crossfire. I don't hate you for who you are, we just don't agree on certain things. Shall we continue....

Actually when I said "So is my fraternal twin brother and he does also." I was saying "of course he would say the same thing you did". Although I don't agree with his 'lifestyle' I still love my brother by the way. Born that way? I dunno but it can't be 'natural' for a guy to like another guy's hairy legs (yuck). :roll:

 

Danwell... very well said.

I just wanted to add a little side bar to your commentary concerning the immigration problem, if you don�ft mind.

You are �g100%�h correct that the illegal aliens coming into this country from the south are a huge burden. They do not pay their fair share of taxes but take �gfull�h advantages of all the social programs afforded them. In many cases they get more help than poor Americans.

One big concern here in the southwest is the drain on our health care facilities, which includes using hospital emergency rooms as a primary care provider. They can not be turned away no matter what their ability to pay. The money spent to provide for these people is putting a large hole in the California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and US budgets.

The �gIllegal Aliens�h and you don�ft have to be PC here�c come from all over Central and South America as well as Mexico. There are no two ways about it. These people are foreign nationals which our own government refers to as aliens and they enter this country illegally = "Illegal Aliens". The term, "Undocumented Workers" was coined by our liberal friends and the media as not to offend anyone.

When they do "pop out a baby", that child is born as an "American" citizen. This in turn makes it extremely difficult if not impossible to deport the parents of this new born �gAmerican�h citizen, a further drain on our country supporting yet another person that has no right to be here.

The same applies to children born of at least one Americain parent overseas, even those serving overseas with the military. At birth they are technically a citizen of the country they are born in, even if born in a military medical facility. After the child's birth, the parent must take the birth certificate to the nearest American embassy or consulet and reguest the documentation to prove that the baby is an American, born overseas of an American parent. An American child born overseas can not run for the presidency of this country as they are not a "natural" born citizen. Yet a child born of Illegal Aliens is by birth an American citizen and may run for president. Strange, huh?

Do you want a good laugh or two?

Mexican Hwy 2, a well paved two lane road, runs parallel along 1/3 of the Arizona border with Mexico from the little town of Lukeville, AZ to just below the CA state line. There is nothing but �g127�h miles of road through open desert. On the American side there are no roads, only an extremely harsh 4x4 trail known as: El Camino del Diablo... for us Gringo's, that translates into "the Devil's Highway".

There is the small town of Sonoyta, Mexico across the border from Lukeville at the start of Hwy 2. About 45 miles west is the very small village of Los Vidrios with a population of six people, a donkey, three goats, a baby pig and 12 chickens�c opps, they had one for dinner last night. Make that 11 chickens. There is absolutely nothing out there for the entire 127 miles, check out this map: http://a6.cpimg.com/image/A2/60/3335...-0200012E-.jpg

On the American side of the boarder, just west of Lukeville and Sonoyta lies Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument. There is a 50 mile 4x4 road that loops through the park. About 5 miles of it runs maybe 30 feet from the international border in a straight line�c a two strand barbed wire fence propped open with some sticks is what divides us from Mexico.

Now for the kicker�c 10 miles west of Sonoyta, Mexico, there is a little shack in the middle of nowhere that has a sign out front. Yep, you guessed it. It says �gBus Stop�h. Three times I have driven this road/trail. I have yet to see any Boarder Patrol agents in the area or in the hills above.

Now for the second laugh�c In most cases (and anyone who has spent time in Phoenix, Tucson or anywhere in the Southwest can attest to this) it is obvious who does not belong here. Their dress is completely different than ours and they speak very little if any English. Yet police or boarder patrol agents are powerless to stop and question them. Unless they get caught at the border or caught being smuggled in or at a drop house, they are home free once they get to town. In most cases when they run afoul of the law, they pay their fine or serve some jail time. No mention is made of their status to be in this country.

Those illegals who move up to owning a junk car do not have a license to drive nor do they have insurance. Guess who pays higher premiums because of the many hit and run accidents they are involved in here with the illegals? Yep, you and me.

Oh, one last thing... there are groups here in Arizona who actively run safe stops for the Illegals out in the desert with the US officials having full knowledge of what's going on... a blind eye is turned the other way. They provide water and shade from the hot desert sun giving them a place to rest before continueing their illegal journey. That is wrong, they are giving comfort to criminals!!! Yes they are criminals... they have violated our immigration laws.

Before some of you folks out there start calling me heartless and cold, remember this... the illegal's know the hazards of attempting a dersert crossing with little or no water, yet they come. They may not be educated but they are not stupid. Sufficiant water needed to make the trip is heavy to carry and would only slow them down further. They come ill prepared for a desert crossing where summer temps can easily hit 120�‹. No I don't wish anyone dead... the soulution to stop people from dying in the desert (I believe there were about 160 last year in AZ alone) is just stay the hell home... we don't need you or want you!!! Jump through the proper hoops and come on over legaly, then you'll be welcomed.

I�fll get off my soap box for now. :wink:

 

No problem, I think its good to get out the info on the reality of the problem that many people just ignore and think will correct itself.

I really wish the modern immogrant was like in the old days. They came here to really become part of this country and not just to suck the resources without giving back.

I have Irish and Indian and when my relatives came from Ireland, they worked hard and did their share without expecting this country to give them a living.

Which brings up another factoid. I traced my roots and discovered that my reliatives came here after slavery ended!!! Its amazing how many black people like to believe that every white families history included owning slaves......well its not true. In fact very few families owned any slaves. I know I would have never opted to if Id been born in that time but its sad how many times I come across a black person with a 'chip' on their shoulder that gives me that look of "You honkey" when I try to be nice and say 'hello'.

 

AZ Outlaw,
First of all, saying "Why do I need to know.." basically comes across as saying "Don't flaunt your sexuality in my face...stay in the closet." I'm gonna assume tho that you don't think that and explain why I said I was gay.
One reason is in response to Danwell saying "Allow same sex marriages (to help water down normal life and confuse kids on what is normal and what is perverted)". If on the Nissan 350Z boards someone was saying the X-fire has horrible handling wouldn't you refute their comments with your own knowedge? Wouldn't you mention you have an X-fire as proof of your knowledge?

Another reason is to illustrate that not all gays are liberals. I'm not gonna be lumped into one political viewpoint.

AND, I'm proud of who I am. Southern, white, male, gay, artist, brother, uncle, son, 33...all these things are a part of me. You'd have no problem with me stating any of that EXCEPT for the gay part. Interesting.

DANWELL,
Your thoughts on Liberals are opinions...not facts. I could make a laundry list of unflattering opinions about Republicans but that would only be an opinion.
-Repubs only went to war for OIL!
-They only went after Saddam because Bush Sr. failed the first time!
-Repubs are all white racists who hate Mexicans and Arabs!
-Repubs really support the KKK!

Are those true? No. Both sides can slander and malign the other to justify their beliefs.....doesn't mean it's truth.

Seperation of Church and State? You aren't telling me anything I don't know. I still support the philosophy. You supporting websites are politically slanted...heavily. The basics of why this country was formed was to escape religious tyrany. "Seperation" supports religious freedom for all....that means freedom for YOU too.

Gay Rights......there are over 1000 federal benefits and protections afforded married heterosexuals.
A little story. A friend of mine was in a longterm relationship with a man who's family had disowned years earlier. They had no contact at all. My friend's partner then was diagnosed with terminal cancer. My friend went broke and lost his job trying to care for his lover. His last couple of days were spent in the hospital....with his family. How you say? Well, he called his family to say goodbye...they came in, barred my friend from the hospital (legally) AND took possession of everything in their apartment. Unfortunately my friend hadn't put his name on the lease and EVERYTHING, even the stuff that was his, was taken LEGALLY by people who only wanted the money of the son they hated. He lost everything and he never got to say goodbye.

The Bible: The scripture you site is an edited and translated "version" of the Bible. The original text of the Bible never mentioned homosexuals nor did Jesus. However, I respect your religious beliefs and defend your right to worship in your own way.

You misunderstood me when I quoted the 10 Commandments.(Thou shall not kill) It's an example of how people can claim higher morality thru their own interpretation of something that seems so clear. You think you are more moral.....they think they are more moral. The point is just because someone believes differently doesn't mean they are immoral.

Let me again state that I am NOT a Liberal or Democrat. That said, something I find really interesting is why is it that nearly all Republicans are straight and white......anyone else who falls out of that group tends to be a Democrat?


Dallas

 

One NEVER brings up politics or Religion without remorse. If the majority of you want to re-elect that blithering idiot to the presidency, then I don't want to associate with the majority of you. I would have voted for McCain, but Bush is probably the worst Republican president of the last century. You must be blinded by the meager tax cuts. Talk about VooDoo economics.ops:

 

The perp is from Texas. That explains a LOT.

 

Being a german Citizen I can't vote...at least not over here :-) But given the chance I would surely not vote for GW....He is just toooooo far right in every way. And the whole idea of mixing goverment and religion is just the last straw that breaks the proverbial camels back.
Speaking of Camels....this administration has squandered all the good will that was built up over 50+ years since WW2. America is the greatest country in my humble opinion, i would not live here if it wasn't, but it deserves much better than this "selected" rather than elected simpleton.
Is a Kerry Presidency a sure fire bet that everything will be better...nope...but I like what he has laid out so far. Amazingly enough C-Span is one of my favorite channels because you really get both sides of the story right from the horses mouth.
Btw speaking of the Clintons as a foreigner I can tell you one thing....he is still respected around the world ...something that W will never be. Feared maybe ...respected...not a chance.
I am still amazed that while $45 Mil were spent to go after Billy with the end result that he was impeached for lying about a BJ.....and no one seems to care to look into Ws lies about Iraq, the way the pharma industry was able to write law that cost $750 Mil and serves only them and many other issues...not least the Aug 6th PDB ....with no actionable intelligence...
So even though I can't vote for the guy I have sent my contribution to JFK because I firmly believe that the good old USA and the rest of the world would be better off with him in the Oval Office.
One thing I just had to add here after re-reading some of the other posts is how it seems that the two opinions can no longer be discussed in this day and age without getting very personal and very nasty...I do not claim to be always right on everything and think a fool of anyone who does.
I do not agree with much of the defences for W brought up by some around here..but that is no reason to try and hit below the belt. That proves nothing...if some statement is incorrect...state what is correct in your opinion. And don't forget it's nothing more than that.
Even the "facts" some are throwing around here are nothing more than an opinion based on playing the numbers one way or the other...give me a study and I give you the "facts" the way you like them.
As a German Citizen I am a little worried about some of the changes made by this President after 911. The patriot act being one of them, the Homeland Security Dept another....we had both of those too after "the Jews" burned the Reichstag. I am NOT saying they are the same but some of the provisions in the patriot act are giving the Government too much power against it's own citizens. Without due process. And it already has been used in NV in a case totally unrelated to terrorism.... but a tool so nice was just too perfect for the Police to pass up.
As a Pilot I am very much intune with what goes on in the aviation world and while some of the initial changes were long overdue some others were simply done without too much long term consideration.
For example a long standing process involved in revoking a license has now been short cut to just the TSA making the call if they consider a pilot a risk to national security.....again no due process...no right to a hearing with an independent Judge/Referee ...and all it takes is one all too easily made mistake or even a simple equipment failure....if you want cases I can give you more details.
The limitations to freedom of speech imposed by the FCC are another item that I blame GW for ....rightly or wrongly so ;-)
Again I love this country and I am greatful for what the men and women in uniform have done for it and for my native Germany. I could have never grown up a free man if it wasn't for them. What really makes my blood curl is when anyone that thinks going into Irak, at least before the war in Afghanistan is finished, was a very bad idea has his love for country challenged and is called a communist or what ever else get's thrown around. Keep it civil and try to remember aside from our political views we all like each other as Xfire owners ;-)

 

One morning before work I was watching the news and they were talking about the candidates running for President so I decided to make a quick poll just to see who would win and would check it after work just to see what would happen. Well of course some had other candidates in mind and being in a hurry I only put the leading two. After that hit the fan I figured this post would fade out but instead got pretty hot and YES, I know I did my share of arguing. So let me say this....

Dallas, I know we have had some heated conversation but nonetheless you seem like a nice guy even though we don't agree about everything (and who does anyway)? Politics/Religion etc... has a way of getting people debating and I think its time to finally let this post fade into oblivion.

Harry, vote for whoever you want, Im voting for Mr. Bush and im from California...

Sunny, Its fine if you like Bill Clinton. Many of us don't but to each their own.

NOW, can we all let the politics go and get back to the Xfire? :mrgreen:

 

What does it explain jack*ss? I hate people who bash Texas. I also can't believe you are dumb enough to think no one on this forum is from Texas. Get a clue and then get some class.

 

I merely stated that explains a lot because Bush is a native son. It is natural to support him. JO . BTW You have all the class of a paper cup.

Good post Sunny 9850 Sometimes it takes a person slightly removed from the rucus to point things out.