I'm not looking to make enemies and am open to any valid arguments.
My religious upbringing wasn't strict, my mother is a Russian orthodox and my father is a Southern Baptist. I went to various churches with friends growing up and my folks weren't too choosy about where I went as long as I held some faith. I did have faith, prayed, proseletyzed to bring sinners aboard etc. Later on in life, smug in my knowledge , Jehova's Witnesses came to my door. I would show them! Armed with my bible and after many trips to the library and to various bookstores I found out what was true to me. The Jehova Witness folks were as wrong as my own beliefs. As were the LDS folks I studied with next. Took about ten years of agonizing but I finally took the step away from religious beliefs and toward more fact based reasoning.
If folks would take a step back, have an open mind and actually study their history and science with religion in context there really isn't any other option except to jettison a belief in any deity(s).

 

Is there then morality if God does not exist? I want to argue that if God exists, then the objectivity of moral values, moral duties, and moral accountability is secured, but that in the absence of God, that is, if God does not exist, then morality is just a human convention, that is to say, morality is wholly subjective and non-binding. We might act in precisely the same ways that we do in fact act, but in the absence of God, such actions would no longer count as good (or evil), since if God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist. Thus, we cannot truly be good without God. On the other hand, if we do believe that moral values and duties are objective, that provides moral grounds for believing in God.
On the theistic view, objective moral values are rooted in God. God’s own holy and perfectly good nature supplies the absolute standard against which all actions and decisions are measured. God’s moral nature is what Plato called the “Good.” He is the locus and source of moral value. He is by nature loving, generous, just, faithful, kind, and so forth.
The theistic hypothesis God holds all persons morally accountable for their actions. Evil and wrong will be punished; righteousness will be vindicated. Good ultimately triumphs over evil, and we shall finally see that we do live in a moral universe after all. Despite the inequities of this life, in the end the scales of God’s justice will be balanced. Thus, the moral choices we make in this life are infused with an eternal significance. We can with consistency make moral choices which run contrary to our self-interest and even undertake acts of extreme self-sacrifice, knowing that such decisions are not empty and ultimately meaningless gestures. Rather our moral lives have a paramount significance. So I think it is evident that theism provides a sound foundation for morality.
Contrast this with the atheistic hypothesis. First, if atheism is true, objective moral values do not exist. If God does not exist, then what is the foundation for moral values? More particularly, what is the basis for the value of human beings? If God does not exist, then it is difficult to see any reason to think that human beings are special or that their morality is objectively true. Moreover, why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything? Who or what imposes any moral duties upon us?
If there is no God, then any ground for regarding the herd morality evolved by **** sapiens as objectively true seems to have been removed. After all, what is so special about human beings? They are just accidental by-products of nature which have evolved relatively recently on an infinitesimal speck of dust lost somewhere in a hostile and mindless universe and which are doomed to perish individually and collectively in a relatively short time. Some action, say, incest, may not be biologically or socially advantageous and so in the course of human evolution has become taboo; but there is on the atheistic view nothing really wrong about committing incest. If the moral principles that govern our behavior are rooted in habit and custom, feeling and fashion,then the non-conformist who chooses to flout the herd morality is doing nothing more serious than acting unfashionably.

Moreover, if atheism is true, there is no moral accountability for one’s actions. Even if there were objective moral values and duties under naturalism, they are irrelevant because there is no moral accountability. If life ends at the grave, it makes no difference whether one lives as a Stalin or as a saint. As the Russian writer Fyodor Dostoyevsky rightly said: “If there is no immortality, then all things are permitted.
Given the finality of death, it really does not matter how you live. So what do you say to someone who concludes that we may as well just live as we please, out of pure self-interest? This presents a pretty grim picture for an atheistic ethicist.
Acts of self-sacrifice become particularly inept on a naturalistic world view. Why should you sacrifice your self-interest and especially your life for the sake of someone else? There can be no good reason for adopting such a self-negating course of action on the naturalistic world view. Considered from the socio-biological point of view, such altruistic behavior is merely the result of evolutionary conditioning which helps to perpetuate the species. A mother rushing into a burning house to rescue her children or a soldier throwing his body over a hand grenade to save his comrades does nothing more significant or praiseworthy, morally speaking, than a fighter ant which sacrifices itself for the sake of the ant hill. Common sense dictates that we should resist, if we can, the socio-biological pressures to such self-destructive activity and choose instead to act in our best self-interest.
In summary, theological meta-ethical foundations do seem to be necessary for morality. If God does not exist, then it is plausible to think that there are no objective moral values, that we have no moral duties, and that there is no moral accountability for how we live and act. The horror of such a morally neutral world is obvious. If, on the other hand, we hold, as it seems rational to do, that objective moral values and duties do exist, then we have good grounds for believing in the existence of God. In addition, we have powerful practical reasons for embracing theism in view of the morally bracing effects which belief in moral accountability produces. We cannot, then, truly be good without God; but if we can in some measure be good, then it follows that God exists.

 

Sorry but your logic does not hold water.

Humans (i.e atheists) can create laws to enforce morality without the need for God.

“Morality” laws can differ wildly from culture to culture. If there is only one God (or Creator) – how can this be? (Queue: George Carlin “The Ten Commandments”)

Shouldn’t there be one set of laws for all mankind – everywhere (kinda like a new world order – administered by the church? Or the ubber rich?)

Morality Laws are made for the protection and survival of our species (Darwin) - - Now I’m discounting laws created for greed and power of the privileged or for the under-privileged; but that’s more political.

Morality Laws existed long before man created God (if you can look to science and beyond the Bible)

Applying your logic to the Christian Religion; what good are the Biblical Morality Laws; if anyone can bow their head on their bended knees and truly accept Jesus into their heart has Lord and Savior any time before their appointment to the gas chamber and their sins are forgiven and they are free to ascend to heaven? Talk about the ultimate “get-out-of-hell-free” card.

If we need to believe in the prime creator to apply Morality Laws in our life – then why did the prime creator create the sins that require the need for these laws?

Or is man just fundamentally flawed? And if we’re created in his image and likeness, then the prime creator MUST ALSO BE flawed, and thus cannot be trusted to create anything without a set of Morality Laws to him/her/it to follow.

When you apply logic to the “Creationist” theory – it can never work, that is, without the fundamental requirement of faith.

 

^^^ Please attend you local church organization for the multitude of answers you seek. I'm sure the Pastor would be more than happy to sit down with you after services also. They actually care enough to do that..

Oh.. that is if you REALLY want answers.. most won't consider it worth the time I'm sure.

 

Blindly believe what someone with a vested interest in furthering the con game tells you. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Read and understand the meaning of an earlier post of mine here. You do not believe in anyone's god but yours among the thousands that have been dreamed up. So you too are one god from being a true atheist.

'We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further'.
Richard Dawkins

 

And proud of it..

Maybe it's my own humility that keeps my from considering myself to be the "supreme" being of this universe.. human flaw huh..

 

So if the Creator created you, then question that begs to be answered is - why?

Why did God create you and put you on the Planet Earth?

For what purpose?

I mean, if there's a Heaven and or, a Hell waiting to greet you at the end; and our decisions in life determine the outcome, what is the purpose of your creation?

 

and...........Who created God?

 

Some guy wanted to scare the little kids in the next cave and started a rumor. The rumor got out of hand and they all ended up scared, except for the guy who started the rumor.
He told everyone it was all a hoax, the rest said he was insulting god and put him into the fire.
His last words were "I should have kept my mouth shut".

 

Your right.. since we have no purpose let's just mix up a big tank of coolaid for the world and end the questions..

 

LOL...no offense Dave but I was really hoping to get an answer from Brian. While I know your answer is somewhat true and affable, Brians are usually plausible.

 

Thought someone didn't believe in coincidence .. seems like a lot of coincidence's must have happened to get here today via "non creation"..

 

Just curious, do you believe that you would be the same religion/have the same faith today if you were born and raised in India. Since christianity is the religion of choice in N. America and Western Europe does that mean that your god favors these geopraphic areas over other places? I am assuming you are a self described christian. Does your faith include all christian religions and their various take on the bible story or is it narrower and excludes other christians as not gtting it right and thus doomed to hell?

As far as the poster and what he believe are morals that atheists can't have because they don't adhere to his belief in a sky daddy. It strikes me as odd that christians who profess to aspire to be like Jesus would also generally be in favor of state sanctioned executions, anti-abortion in cases of rape and incest, anti poor in their dealings as ultra conservative religious fundamentalists. How do you justify one against the other? I'm not saying all christians are this way but a large chunk of them are.

Morals are needed only insofar as the keep society functional for the whole. They are meaningless in an anarchists society. Check out Mexico, 90% practicing Roman catholics that butcher each other at an alarming rate, good thing they have jesus and the commandments or the murder rate would skyrocket!

 

`


Don't forget about the band of pedophiles that have held positions of trust within the Catholic Church.

 

You do make a good case for believing you started as pond scum somewhere.. I will give you that.

 

Who are you referring to?
If you are intending these jabs at me you may want to consider that my posts do not indicate which side of the debate I stand on.
FYI.....I was born and raised Catholic. My previous post is factual and should be no surprise to anyone who can read a newspaper or watch the news. Been going on for years.

 

He's referring to the Aquatic ape Hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_hypothesis

 

Leviticus is full of laws that none of us who call ourselves christians choose to follow. If you are looking for your Christian/Muslim/Jewish laws that would be a great place to start.

 

Looks like the only thing being "Looked for" here is for those who do believe to defend our position and explain those who don't adhere to teachings of the Bible even though they profess a believe. Just another day in the persecution of those with a Christian faith.

 

I support your right to freely believe. I don't know why you should feel persecuted as people of faith such as yourself are largely in control over the rest of us non-believers here in the states.
That being said, like Western Europe, the USA is losing believers at a steady rate. This country will be below 20% belief in the next 50 years. It stands to reason as superstition and myth are drug out into the light , people turn away from ideas that have no meaningful attachment to reality.
People love monster movies but not even the Japanese believe Godzilla is real.