Red Light Camera
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Re: Red Light Camera
Arizona has them all over the place. Interstates. traffic lights and just along roads. However they take driver pocture as well as license plate. But they only send tickets to AZ residents. Some how they must not be able to do picture tickets across state lines. If you're not driving your car they;ll send ticket to your home asking you who the driver is. So far you don't have to tell them although they're trying to change that too. Supposely there is a guy in Phoenix who wears a monkey mask, got many tickets to his house but has yet to pay one and hasn't gone to jail.
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 707
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
Re: Red Light Camera
Originally Posted by Infinite
at least the machines dont try to chase you
Senior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,027
Likes: 5
From: Folsom, CA
Re: Red Light Camera
They put two of them in my city. Of course the rationale was to prevent accidents. They were in place for around 2 years. During that time accidents at those intersections actually increased. Seems after a few tickets were issued, people started slamming on the brakes when they saw a yellow light. A major rise in rear enders soon followed their implementation.
They are gone now!
They are gone now!
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,228
Likes: 9
From: KC, Kansas
Re: Red Light Camera
The system activates when motion is detected just prior to the stop bar AFTER the traffic signal has turned red. The cameras capture two images of an alleged violation, taken from the rear of the vehicle.
Why does the camera flash when no one actually runs the red light?
The red-light safety camera system is designed to take two rear photographs of a vehicle that may be committing a violation. The first rear image captures the vehicle prior to entering the intersection with the traffic signal red, and the second image shows the vehicle continuing through the intersection during the red signal phase.
On occasion, a vehicle approaching an intersection with a red light may come to a stop before entering the intersection, yet trigger the red-light camera system, causing the flash to discharge. In addition, a vehicle approaching the intersection making a right turn may not come to a complete stop, but only slow before continuing to turn, triggering the red-light safety camera system and causing the flash to discharge.
Who determines if a violation has occurred?
The Kansas City, Missouri Police Department reviews each violation event captured by the red-light camera system and makes the final decision to issue a Notice of Violation. All flash incidents do not equate to a violation.
Source: http://www.kcmo.org/CKCMO/Depts/PublicWorks/Red-LightSafetyCameraProgram/ V. What To Do After You Get A Ticket
Bend over and take it in the ***.
Or fight it. I was going to compile a bunch of great information for this section, but Nick Charles did a better job already:
LMTD from over on mocarry submitted this idea which seems simple and easy to remember ...
Defense: Not guilty. Your honor I was not driving. Your honor I also am not testifying.
If they say exactly that and nothing more and plead the 5th on any other questions, red light cams become a thing of the past as it HAS to be dismissed.
If they tend to ramble or think they can say more to help themselves they are WRONG and in fact, if they cross the line of testifying, they HAVE to answer questions as they have already testified.
Net result is few will do it as the fine is cheaper than the day off work, but if they make the choice be sure they understand, it is totally impossible to enforce red light cams.Just never testify, not guilty, I was not driving, I am not testifying and am not willing to testify. That ends it every time, they have no choice, there is no wa to prove you were the driver and you can not be compelled to testify against yourself or your family members.
(added 2009-10-14)
Where You'll Go To See The Evidence Related To Your Criminal Activity: https://www.violationinfo.com/
VI. What To Do Before You Get A Ticket
1. Contact the city and let them know what you think (check http://www.kcmo.org/ for contact info).
3. Check the list of KC red light camera locations and remember where they are.
4. Add the GPS coordinates to your GPS device so you'll know where the red light cameras are in KC.
5. Install and use one of the many cell phone speed trap (and red light camera) apps. VII. Additional Information
Missouri: Ethics Law Stops Traffic Camera Company
- The first image shows the vehicle at the white stop bar and the illuminated red light.
- The second image shows the violator in the middle of the intersection with the illuminated red light.
- The license plate image is a close-up from one of the images captured.
Why does the camera flash when no one actually runs the red light?
The red-light safety camera system is designed to take two rear photographs of a vehicle that may be committing a violation. The first rear image captures the vehicle prior to entering the intersection with the traffic signal red, and the second image shows the vehicle continuing through the intersection during the red signal phase.
On occasion, a vehicle approaching an intersection with a red light may come to a stop before entering the intersection, yet trigger the red-light camera system, causing the flash to discharge. In addition, a vehicle approaching the intersection making a right turn may not come to a complete stop, but only slow before continuing to turn, triggering the red-light safety camera system and causing the flash to discharge.
Who determines if a violation has occurred?
The Kansas City, Missouri Police Department reviews each violation event captured by the red-light camera system and makes the final decision to issue a Notice of Violation. All flash incidents do not equate to a violation.
Source: http://www.kcmo.org/CKCMO/Depts/PublicWorks/Red-LightSafetyCameraProgram/ V. What To Do After You Get A Ticket
Bend over and take it in the ***.
Or fight it. I was going to compile a bunch of great information for this section, but Nick Charles did a better job already:
Kansas City Red Light Camera Program We had planned on drop-kicking writing about some self-rightous JOCO morons newer JOCO blogs when this landed in our in-box:
Normally we would figure a City's gotta do what a City's gotta do and go about our business. However, this time a few points need be made.
1)Unless the City of Kansas City sends tickets via registered mail with a return receipt, there is absolutely no guarantee that any recipient will ever receive a ticket.
My guess is that the tickets generated from the new photo enforcement cameras will be posted - at best - via First Class mail. However, it is far more likely the citations will be sent at bulk rates.
Do you get all of your mail? I know I don't and I can damn sure say the two families that lived here before us don't.
If I don't receive a ticket (for the sake of argument let us assume I am the sort of scofflaw that drives without a seatbelt and blows through red lights while drinking a vodka/tonic ... in an open container!), how am I to know the City will soon be issuing a bench warrant for my arrest?
2) If that 'Artist's Rendering' I've linked to is anywhere near accurate, the cameras do not espy the drivers of any of the rogue vehicles. For all Kansas City knows, the red light running car may be ... Knight Rider!!! And you want to ticket me? Asshats.
Granted, a more likely scenario is that Asta has borrowed the car to run up to QT and buy all their candy, but still, the point is the same.
(What? You think it unlikely that a 6 year old would be driving? Pshaw, I say. How do you know I don't live in MM's neighborhood, where 6 year olds not only drive, but carjack, sling crack, pimp their mommas and shoot people that step on their feet?)
The problem here is the burden of proof remains with the owner of the car.
3) The U.S. Postal service.
Yes, I know they're fellow Federal employees. But, and this is a big but, they're only quasi-Federal employees. And they lose ****. ALL THE ******' TIME. So, you might actually receive the ticket ... right after a cop hauls you in on the bench warrant.
4) Computers. Wi-Fi. Infrared. Servo-mechanical I/O stuff. Fog. Rain. Blinding heat. Bird ****. Morons with dumdum guns that damage the units. In short, faulty readings. Who you gonna call?
No one, that's who.
If you can't call anyone, perhaps you could start mailing people. I might (just as a hypothetical example, you understand) mail a letter upon receiving an erroneous ticket. I might mail this letter to the Chief of Police of the KCPD, the Director of Traffic Engineering, the Director of Public Safety, and the City Clerk. The requested information is within my right to obtain as part of my defense and the City would have an obligation to produce the information.
Here's what I might pen:
I might also write a second letter, said letter to be mailed to the City Attorney:
Of course, I would send the letters via registered mail with a return receipt.
It's not that I believe the City would claim that they didn't receive my missives, but ... well, you know.
I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one here at WNBTv, our beautiful imaginary news organ. But my gut says the City has to give me a hearing within 90 days. I will arrange to be early to that hearing. And I will check in and procede to give notice that I will only wait for 30 minutes after the scheduled hearing time, whereupon I will begin charging the City $200 per hour, plus attorney fees.
However ... it may not get to that.
That's a lot of requested documents.
Moreover, the nature of some of the documents will undoubtedly make the City queasy to release; some of that information might damage the red light camera program should it become public. For example, how the monitored intersections are chosen. Several other blogs and news outlets have publicly speculated that the city is most concerned with revenue and will choose/have chosen intersections based on income rather than traffic accident history.
Then there is the issue of the City employees. In other cities, very often the local government finds itself under legal assault - think class action suit - from its own employees who get nailed by the cameras.
Additionally, the sheer volume of documents involved is daunting. And should every Joe and Jane Doe in Kansas City decide to take a similar approach ... oh, my, that's all I can say.
In fact, I can hear lawyers all across town either giggling or having conniption fits as word of this post slowly leaks out. Trust me on this; it may not make the news but it IS going to be argued about in the better law offices all day.
Maybe all week.
by Nick | January 15, 2009 | 11:29 pm
Source: http://willnotbetelevised.com/tv/2009/01/15/kansas-city-red-light-camera-program/ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Jan. 15, 2009 First red-light camera installation to be active Jan. 22 Initial installation includes 30-day warning period The City of Kansas City, Mo., Public Works Department today announced that installation is nearly complete on the City's first red-light safety cameras. The safety cameras will be installed at the intersection of Southwest Trafficway and W. 39th Street and begin operation Jan. 22. There will be a 30-day warning period for the first red-light safety camera installation. Warnings will be sent to vehicle owners by mail.
Well! Normally we would figure a City's gotta do what a City's gotta do and go about our business. However, this time a few points need be made.
1)Unless the City of Kansas City sends tickets via registered mail with a return receipt, there is absolutely no guarantee that any recipient will ever receive a ticket.
My guess is that the tickets generated from the new photo enforcement cameras will be posted - at best - via First Class mail. However, it is far more likely the citations will be sent at bulk rates.
Do you get all of your mail? I know I don't and I can damn sure say the two families that lived here before us don't.
If I don't receive a ticket (for the sake of argument let us assume I am the sort of scofflaw that drives without a seatbelt and blows through red lights while drinking a vodka/tonic ... in an open container!), how am I to know the City will soon be issuing a bench warrant for my arrest?
2) If that 'Artist's Rendering' I've linked to is anywhere near accurate, the cameras do not espy the drivers of any of the rogue vehicles. For all Kansas City knows, the red light running car may be ... Knight Rider!!! And you want to ticket me? Asshats.
Granted, a more likely scenario is that Asta has borrowed the car to run up to QT and buy all their candy, but still, the point is the same.
(What? You think it unlikely that a 6 year old would be driving? Pshaw, I say. How do you know I don't live in MM's neighborhood, where 6 year olds not only drive, but carjack, sling crack, pimp their mommas and shoot people that step on their feet?)
The problem here is the burden of proof remains with the owner of the car.
3) The U.S. Postal service.
Yes, I know they're fellow Federal employees. But, and this is a big but, they're only quasi-Federal employees. And they lose ****. ALL THE ******' TIME. So, you might actually receive the ticket ... right after a cop hauls you in on the bench warrant.
4) Computers. Wi-Fi. Infrared. Servo-mechanical I/O stuff. Fog. Rain. Blinding heat. Bird ****. Morons with dumdum guns that damage the units. In short, faulty readings. Who you gonna call?
No one, that's who.
If you can't call anyone, perhaps you could start mailing people. I might (just as a hypothetical example, you understand) mail a letter upon receiving an erroneous ticket. I might mail this letter to the Chief of Police of the KCPD, the Director of Traffic Engineering, the Director of Public Safety, and the City Clerk. The requested information is within my right to obtain as part of my defense and the City would have an obligation to produce the information.
Here's what I might pen:
TO: The City of Kansas City Chief of Police
The City of Kansas City DIrector of Traffic Engineering
The City of Kansas City Director of Public Safety
City Clerk, The City of Kansas City
FROM: Owner of { make, model year }
Dear Directors and City Clerk,
I am requesting the following records and/or materials, all of which pertain to The City of Kansas City's red light camera systems.
A. The original contract between your agency and its red light camera vendor, with all attachments or exhibits. All updates, amendments, extensions, renewals, or revisions thereto.
B. For each "intersection approach" or "approach" (defined as a red light camera or cameras monitoring any or all lanes of traffic entering an intersection from a single compass direction) within your jurisdiction, the monthly (or if 'monthly' not available, other periodic) tabulation or tally of citations recorded, issued, discarded, and paid (fine collected), from the onset of the program to the present.
C. All invoices from said vendor to your agency, or other requests to pay vendor, with all attachments or exhibits thereto. Also, a list of all payments made to vendor, or if that is not available, for each payment made, a voucher, check stub, counterpart or other evidence of payment.
D(1). For red light camera installations within your jurisdiction, your "uniform guidelines for screening and issuing violations and for the processing and storage of confidential information ..." as mentioned within your vehicle code. Or, an otherwise-entitled document(s) having the same subject.
D(2) The procedures to ensure compliance with those guidelines, or, an otherwise-entitled document(s) having the same subject.
D(3) Your guidelines for selection of locations of red light cameras, or, an otherwise-entitled document(s) having the same subject.
Please provide each record or material in (D) above in its original form or edition. Please also provide all updates, new editions, or revisions, with appropriate notation as to the record or material's date.
E. A complete list of all red light camera citations dismissed within the last year.
F. All materials of any kind, created or dated January 1, 2007 to the present and relating to any intersection that presently is, or is to be, the site of photo enforcement, reflecting or discussing any of the following: traffic congestion there, corrective measures taken or needed to be taken there (including enforcement of traffic laws via either traditional methods or via photo enforcement), or other traffic-related problems there. please provide any material reflecting how said photo enforced intersection(s) ranked, in terms of safety or accidents, when compared to other, not necessarily photo-enforced, intersections in your jurisdiction.
Please also provide, for all intersections regardless of whether they are photo enforced, or not, any material reflecting juridiction-wide rankings in terms of safety or accidents.
G. The staff report, with any attachments, from any public hearing held on the red light camera system and all newspaper notices of said public hearing.
H. The signal timing charts for all intersections presently having red light camera installations (or where such an installation has been approved for construction), reflecting the present signal timing settings. Also, any previous versions of said charts reflecting different signal timing settings in use January 1, 2007 or thereafter. If for any said charts the revision or creation date would not be evident and clear from reading the requested photocopy, please add appropriate notations or attach a cover letter.
I. For each of the intersections described in (H) above (including those approved for construction), the radar speed survey(s) applicable to any portion, within 1/2 mile, of a there-intersecting street whose traffic is subject to photo enforcement. (This request excludes surveys of streets that are soley the completion place of photo enforced turning movements.) Said surveys should include both the current survey and any earlier version that ws applicable or in effect anytime after January 1, 1999. Said surveys should cover both directions of travel at each surveyed location, and should include at a minimum, the field technician's chart of individual driver's speeds actually measured, and the traffic engineer's discussion pf the speed limit chosen.
J. Any other staff report (with any attachments) regarding red light cameras and which was presented to the City Council or city commissions or boards after January 1, 2007.
K. The first ten (10) citations issued for each approach during the month of ________ 2009, as well as the last ten (10) issued during that month for each approach. Confidential information that would identify the driver ('PII' data) should be redacted, but direction of movement (straight through, left, right, eastbound, westbound, etc.) should be preserved.
Sincerely,
Nick Charles
Please note:
a.) This request is for copies of the above documents or materials, to be mailed to me. However, if any of these documents are available in electronic form, please email them to me at: nick AT willnotbetelevised.com.
b.) This request is for CERTIFIED copies of the above records or materials. If I wish to have you provide me my own copies of any said record(s) or materials, I will make that request at, or after, the time of inspection.
The City of Kansas City DIrector of Traffic Engineering
The City of Kansas City Director of Public Safety
City Clerk, The City of Kansas City
FROM: Owner of { make, model year }
Dear Directors and City Clerk,
I am requesting the following records and/or materials, all of which pertain to The City of Kansas City's red light camera systems.
A. The original contract between your agency and its red light camera vendor, with all attachments or exhibits. All updates, amendments, extensions, renewals, or revisions thereto.
B. For each "intersection approach" or "approach" (defined as a red light camera or cameras monitoring any or all lanes of traffic entering an intersection from a single compass direction) within your jurisdiction, the monthly (or if 'monthly' not available, other periodic) tabulation or tally of citations recorded, issued, discarded, and paid (fine collected), from the onset of the program to the present.
C. All invoices from said vendor to your agency, or other requests to pay vendor, with all attachments or exhibits thereto. Also, a list of all payments made to vendor, or if that is not available, for each payment made, a voucher, check stub, counterpart or other evidence of payment.
D(1). For red light camera installations within your jurisdiction, your "uniform guidelines for screening and issuing violations and for the processing and storage of confidential information ..." as mentioned within your vehicle code. Or, an otherwise-entitled document(s) having the same subject.
D(2) The procedures to ensure compliance with those guidelines, or, an otherwise-entitled document(s) having the same subject.
D(3) Your guidelines for selection of locations of red light cameras, or, an otherwise-entitled document(s) having the same subject.
Please provide each record or material in (D) above in its original form or edition. Please also provide all updates, new editions, or revisions, with appropriate notation as to the record or material's date.
E. A complete list of all red light camera citations dismissed within the last year.
F. All materials of any kind, created or dated January 1, 2007 to the present and relating to any intersection that presently is, or is to be, the site of photo enforcement, reflecting or discussing any of the following: traffic congestion there, corrective measures taken or needed to be taken there (including enforcement of traffic laws via either traditional methods or via photo enforcement), or other traffic-related problems there. please provide any material reflecting how said photo enforced intersection(s) ranked, in terms of safety or accidents, when compared to other, not necessarily photo-enforced, intersections in your jurisdiction.
Please also provide, for all intersections regardless of whether they are photo enforced, or not, any material reflecting juridiction-wide rankings in terms of safety or accidents.
G. The staff report, with any attachments, from any public hearing held on the red light camera system and all newspaper notices of said public hearing.
H. The signal timing charts for all intersections presently having red light camera installations (or where such an installation has been approved for construction), reflecting the present signal timing settings. Also, any previous versions of said charts reflecting different signal timing settings in use January 1, 2007 or thereafter. If for any said charts the revision or creation date would not be evident and clear from reading the requested photocopy, please add appropriate notations or attach a cover letter.
I. For each of the intersections described in (H) above (including those approved for construction), the radar speed survey(s) applicable to any portion, within 1/2 mile, of a there-intersecting street whose traffic is subject to photo enforcement. (This request excludes surveys of streets that are soley the completion place of photo enforced turning movements.) Said surveys should include both the current survey and any earlier version that ws applicable or in effect anytime after January 1, 1999. Said surveys should cover both directions of travel at each surveyed location, and should include at a minimum, the field technician's chart of individual driver's speeds actually measured, and the traffic engineer's discussion pf the speed limit chosen.
J. Any other staff report (with any attachments) regarding red light cameras and which was presented to the City Council or city commissions or boards after January 1, 2007.
K. The first ten (10) citations issued for each approach during the month of ________ 2009, as well as the last ten (10) issued during that month for each approach. Confidential information that would identify the driver ('PII' data) should be redacted, but direction of movement (straight through, left, right, eastbound, westbound, etc.) should be preserved.
Sincerely,
Nick Charles
Please note:
a.) This request is for copies of the above documents or materials, to be mailed to me. However, if any of these documents are available in electronic form, please email them to me at: nick AT willnotbetelevised.com.
b.) This request is for CERTIFIED copies of the above records or materials. If I wish to have you provide me my own copies of any said record(s) or materials, I will make that request at, or after, the time of inspection.
I might also write a second letter, said letter to be mailed to the City Attorney:
REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY
TO: The City of Kansas City
Mr./Mrs./Ms Whomever, Esq.
Office of the City Attorney
ATTN: Discovery Clerk
City Hall
Kansas City, yadda yadda, yadda
Re: Discovery Request
Citation No. _________________
To the Office of the City Attorney:
I represent myself in the above-referenced matter. I am hereby giving notice that I am requesting disclosure and production of the following materials and information within fifteen (15) days of the date of service of this request:
1. The names and addresses of all witnesses who may be called to testify against th defendant at the trial.
2. All statements regarding this case, whether written or oral, made by any potential witness in this case, whether or not the prosecution intends to call them at trial. The contents of any such oral statement must be disclosed only to the extent that they are not presently contained in police reports or citations given to the defendant, but the City must disclose all additions to, deletions from, denials, explanations and clarifications of such statements contained in the police reports and citations, including all tangible evidence which relates to this case, whether ot not the prsecution intends to introduce the evidence at trial.
3. All handwritten notes and/or case memorandums, if any, made by any agent or employee of the City's red light camera contractor, regarding the officer's, agent's or employee's conversations or interviews with witnesses and/or the defendant in the present case, or regarding his review of documents, citations and photographs, and written report based on those conversations, interviews, or review of said materials.
4. All reports of experts, police officers, service technicians, and investigators made in conjunction with the case involving the results of physical or mental examinations and/or scientific tests, including but not limited to the results of those who examined the photographs, registration records, and data collected in order to request that prosecution be initiated in this matter, together with the reports and results of those who examined the technology and made any such conclusions that the technology was calibrated and/or in proper working order.
5. Examination of any books, papers, documents, photographs, tangible objects or other physical evidence which the City intend to use in the trial or which were obtained or created in the investigation, initiation, or service of the case against the defendant (including proof of service, certificate of mailing, or other evidence of mailing). Copies of all exhibits, including any diagrams, charts, or system logs, the City intend to present at the trial. Defendant pro Se herein requests to make an appointment to view the original exhibits in advance of the trial. please also assure that if any provided photos were originally recorded "digitally", the photos provided under this discovery are also in digital form.
6. Copies of all photos or videos taken of the defendant or of the vehicle he is alleged to have been driving, at or near the time of the alleged violation in this case. this request includes, but is not limited to, copies of the photgraphs allegedly taken during defendant's ahheged encroachment into the aformentioned intersection, and copies of the additional modified phot-enlargements depicting a close-up driver's image and a clos-up license plate photo. please assure that all copies of photographic material (still or video) are the same resolution as the originals, and that all copies of videos are the same length and "frame rate" (frames per second/FPS) as the originals. please also assure that is the original photos were "digital", the copies provided are also in a digital form.
7. Examination of all original photographs, digital images, superimposed images, transparencies, slide, diagrams, motion pictures and/or video tapes, composites or likenesses shown to or reviewed by witnesses and prospective witnesses in this case for the purposes of establishing the identity of suspects in the crime charged against the defendant; and all reports concerning the display of such to said witnesses.
8. All laboratory, technician and other reports concerning the testing and examination of said physical evidence. this request includes the calibration and maintenance documents for the red light camera device(s) installed at the subject intersection (noted above), and the calibration and maintenance documents for the traffic signals at said intersection thereto. This request also specifically includes all documents pertaining to signal timing for all traffic signals at said intersection. This information should include copies of timing requirements, warrant requirements and specifications for all yellow light phases at aid intersection. it should also include copies of any changes or alterations in light phase duration since the installastion of the traffic signal lights, including any changes in light phase duration since the installation of the automated enforcement system at said intersection.
9. Investigation, maintenance, and repair reports pertaining to this case or cases that allegedly occurrd within one month before and one month after the alleged violation in this case, whether written or oral, by the office of the city attorney, the City's police department, the City's red light camera contractor, or any other investigators, technicians, subcontracxtors, or repair workers.
10.(a) A copy of the City's guidelines for screening and issuing violations and for the processing and storage of confidentail infornmation and its procedures to ensure compliance with those guidelines.
10(b) A copy of the City's guidelines for selection of location, as effective on the date of the alleged violation.
11. A copy of the signed and dated contract between the City and the camera contractor, as effective on the date of the alleged violation, including all attachments or "exhibits" thereto. All updates, amendments, extensions, renewals, or revisions thereto.
In additions, the defendant also requests the following information and materials favorable to the accused and material either to guilt or punishment (Brady v. Maryland (1963) 373 U.S. 83, 83S. Ct. 1194), or mandated by the United States Constitution.
12. Exculpatory evidence, i.e., any evidence, information, documents and other materials favorable to the defendant in the possession of the office of the city attorney, or of any police department involved in the investigation of the case against the defendant, or of any agency or person and available to the prosecution through the exercise of due dilligence. This request item includes copies of the logs for the operation of the camera system during the hour before and the hour after the alleged violation.
13. The names and addresses and copies of the citations of all those individuals who have also been charged with the same violation arising at the same intersection on the same date as the defendant.
Materials concerning the constitutionality of red light camera enforcement program:
14. The traffic accident history for each intersection with an installed red light camera unit in the city for the years 1998 through the present. This request includes summaries, accident reports, investigation reports and records, associated memoranda and statistical complications. this request pertains to all traffic accidents, regardless of cause.
Materials concerning the slective and discriminatory enforcement of the red light camrea enforcement program:
15. And and all records, notices, tickets, rports and/or photographs taken or issued by the red light camera program and which did not reslt in prosecution. This request includes any error logs delivered or required to be delivered to the operations manager (or other supervisor of said program) and further includes, but is not limited to, a failure to issue for any or all of the following reasons:
A. The driver could not be identified.
B. City/County/Government vehicle or employee.
C. Warning ticket issued.
16. The following is disclosed to you:
A. Names and addresses of witnesses (other than defendant) who will testify at trial:
() None
() The following:
B. Relevant unprivileged written or recorded statemets of witnesses:
() None.
() See attached.
Defendant asks that this request be treated as a continuing request through the completion of the trial. Do not hestitate to contact me if I can be of asistance of any kind. Thank you for your prompt attention regarding this matter.
Sincerely,
Nick Charles
TO: The City of Kansas City
Mr./Mrs./Ms Whomever, Esq.
Office of the City Attorney
ATTN: Discovery Clerk
City Hall
Kansas City, yadda yadda, yadda
Re: Discovery Request
Citation No. _________________
To the Office of the City Attorney:
I represent myself in the above-referenced matter. I am hereby giving notice that I am requesting disclosure and production of the following materials and information within fifteen (15) days of the date of service of this request:
1. The names and addresses of all witnesses who may be called to testify against th defendant at the trial.
2. All statements regarding this case, whether written or oral, made by any potential witness in this case, whether or not the prosecution intends to call them at trial. The contents of any such oral statement must be disclosed only to the extent that they are not presently contained in police reports or citations given to the defendant, but the City must disclose all additions to, deletions from, denials, explanations and clarifications of such statements contained in the police reports and citations, including all tangible evidence which relates to this case, whether ot not the prsecution intends to introduce the evidence at trial.
3. All handwritten notes and/or case memorandums, if any, made by any agent or employee of the City's red light camera contractor, regarding the officer's, agent's or employee's conversations or interviews with witnesses and/or the defendant in the present case, or regarding his review of documents, citations and photographs, and written report based on those conversations, interviews, or review of said materials.
4. All reports of experts, police officers, service technicians, and investigators made in conjunction with the case involving the results of physical or mental examinations and/or scientific tests, including but not limited to the results of those who examined the photographs, registration records, and data collected in order to request that prosecution be initiated in this matter, together with the reports and results of those who examined the technology and made any such conclusions that the technology was calibrated and/or in proper working order.
5. Examination of any books, papers, documents, photographs, tangible objects or other physical evidence which the City intend to use in the trial or which were obtained or created in the investigation, initiation, or service of the case against the defendant (including proof of service, certificate of mailing, or other evidence of mailing). Copies of all exhibits, including any diagrams, charts, or system logs, the City intend to present at the trial. Defendant pro Se herein requests to make an appointment to view the original exhibits in advance of the trial. please also assure that if any provided photos were originally recorded "digitally", the photos provided under this discovery are also in digital form.
6. Copies of all photos or videos taken of the defendant or of the vehicle he is alleged to have been driving, at or near the time of the alleged violation in this case. this request includes, but is not limited to, copies of the photgraphs allegedly taken during defendant's ahheged encroachment into the aformentioned intersection, and copies of the additional modified phot-enlargements depicting a close-up driver's image and a clos-up license plate photo. please assure that all copies of photographic material (still or video) are the same resolution as the originals, and that all copies of videos are the same length and "frame rate" (frames per second/FPS) as the originals. please also assure that is the original photos were "digital", the copies provided are also in a digital form.
7. Examination of all original photographs, digital images, superimposed images, transparencies, slide, diagrams, motion pictures and/or video tapes, composites or likenesses shown to or reviewed by witnesses and prospective witnesses in this case for the purposes of establishing the identity of suspects in the crime charged against the defendant; and all reports concerning the display of such to said witnesses.
8. All laboratory, technician and other reports concerning the testing and examination of said physical evidence. this request includes the calibration and maintenance documents for the red light camera device(s) installed at the subject intersection (noted above), and the calibration and maintenance documents for the traffic signals at said intersection thereto. This request also specifically includes all documents pertaining to signal timing for all traffic signals at said intersection. This information should include copies of timing requirements, warrant requirements and specifications for all yellow light phases at aid intersection. it should also include copies of any changes or alterations in light phase duration since the installastion of the traffic signal lights, including any changes in light phase duration since the installation of the automated enforcement system at said intersection.
9. Investigation, maintenance, and repair reports pertaining to this case or cases that allegedly occurrd within one month before and one month after the alleged violation in this case, whether written or oral, by the office of the city attorney, the City's police department, the City's red light camera contractor, or any other investigators, technicians, subcontracxtors, or repair workers.
10.(a) A copy of the City's guidelines for screening and issuing violations and for the processing and storage of confidentail infornmation and its procedures to ensure compliance with those guidelines.
10(b) A copy of the City's guidelines for selection of location, as effective on the date of the alleged violation.
11. A copy of the signed and dated contract between the City and the camera contractor, as effective on the date of the alleged violation, including all attachments or "exhibits" thereto. All updates, amendments, extensions, renewals, or revisions thereto.
In additions, the defendant also requests the following information and materials favorable to the accused and material either to guilt or punishment (Brady v. Maryland (1963) 373 U.S. 83, 83S. Ct. 1194), or mandated by the United States Constitution.
12. Exculpatory evidence, i.e., any evidence, information, documents and other materials favorable to the defendant in the possession of the office of the city attorney, or of any police department involved in the investigation of the case against the defendant, or of any agency or person and available to the prosecution through the exercise of due dilligence. This request item includes copies of the logs for the operation of the camera system during the hour before and the hour after the alleged violation.
13. The names and addresses and copies of the citations of all those individuals who have also been charged with the same violation arising at the same intersection on the same date as the defendant.
Materials concerning the constitutionality of red light camera enforcement program:
14. The traffic accident history for each intersection with an installed red light camera unit in the city for the years 1998 through the present. This request includes summaries, accident reports, investigation reports and records, associated memoranda and statistical complications. this request pertains to all traffic accidents, regardless of cause.
Materials concerning the slective and discriminatory enforcement of the red light camrea enforcement program:
15. And and all records, notices, tickets, rports and/or photographs taken or issued by the red light camera program and which did not reslt in prosecution. This request includes any error logs delivered or required to be delivered to the operations manager (or other supervisor of said program) and further includes, but is not limited to, a failure to issue for any or all of the following reasons:
A. The driver could not be identified.
B. City/County/Government vehicle or employee.
C. Warning ticket issued.
16. The following is disclosed to you:
A. Names and addresses of witnesses (other than defendant) who will testify at trial:
() None
() The following:
B. Relevant unprivileged written or recorded statemets of witnesses:
() None.
() See attached.
Defendant asks that this request be treated as a continuing request through the completion of the trial. Do not hestitate to contact me if I can be of asistance of any kind. Thank you for your prompt attention regarding this matter.
Sincerely,
Nick Charles
Of course, I would send the letters via registered mail with a return receipt.
It's not that I believe the City would claim that they didn't receive my missives, but ... well, you know.
I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one here at WNBTv, our beautiful imaginary news organ. But my gut says the City has to give me a hearing within 90 days. I will arrange to be early to that hearing. And I will check in and procede to give notice that I will only wait for 30 minutes after the scheduled hearing time, whereupon I will begin charging the City $200 per hour, plus attorney fees.
However ... it may not get to that.
That's a lot of requested documents.
Moreover, the nature of some of the documents will undoubtedly make the City queasy to release; some of that information might damage the red light camera program should it become public. For example, how the monitored intersections are chosen. Several other blogs and news outlets have publicly speculated that the city is most concerned with revenue and will choose/have chosen intersections based on income rather than traffic accident history.
Then there is the issue of the City employees. In other cities, very often the local government finds itself under legal assault - think class action suit - from its own employees who get nailed by the cameras.
Additionally, the sheer volume of documents involved is daunting. And should every Joe and Jane Doe in Kansas City decide to take a similar approach ... oh, my, that's all I can say.
In fact, I can hear lawyers all across town either giggling or having conniption fits as word of this post slowly leaks out. Trust me on this; it may not make the news but it IS going to be argued about in the better law offices all day.
Maybe all week.
by Nick | January 15, 2009 | 11:29 pm
LMTD from over on mocarry submitted this idea which seems simple and easy to remember ...
Defense: Not guilty. Your honor I was not driving. Your honor I also am not testifying.
If they say exactly that and nothing more and plead the 5th on any other questions, red light cams become a thing of the past as it HAS to be dismissed.
If they tend to ramble or think they can say more to help themselves they are WRONG and in fact, if they cross the line of testifying, they HAVE to answer questions as they have already testified.
Net result is few will do it as the fine is cheaper than the day off work, but if they make the choice be sure they understand, it is totally impossible to enforce red light cams.Just never testify, not guilty, I was not driving, I am not testifying and am not willing to testify. That ends it every time, they have no choice, there is no wa to prove you were the driver and you can not be compelled to testify against yourself or your family members.
(added 2009-10-14)
Where You'll Go To See The Evidence Related To Your Criminal Activity: https://www.violationinfo.com/
VI. What To Do Before You Get A Ticket
1. Contact the city and let them know what you think (check http://www.kcmo.org/ for contact info).
- City of Kansas City Missouri Chief of Police
- City of Kansas City Missouri DIrector of Traffic Engineering
- City of Kansas City Missouri Director of Public Safety
- City Clerk, City of Kansas City Missouri
3. Check the list of KC red light camera locations and remember where they are.
4. Add the GPS coordinates to your GPS device so you'll know where the red light cameras are in KC.
5. Install and use one of the many cell phone speed trap (and red light camera) apps. VII. Additional Information
Missouri: Ethics Law Stops Traffic Camera Company
A former Kansas City, Missouri official is caught in the revolving door with the speed camera industry.
Steve WorleyCity employees who promote the acceptance of lucrative photo enforcement contracts are often rewarded with high-paying jobs at the firms that land the rights to issue automated tickets. In Kansas City, Missouri this revolving door has triggered ethics questions regarding a contract to issue up to $60 million in tickets.
City Traffic Engineer Steve Worley helped convince Kansas City officials that it was in their best interests to embrace speed cameras and red light cameras. These officials, desperate to fill a multimillion dollar budget gap, eventually agreed with the plan.
"The implementation of photo-radar would also have positive benefits from additional revenues generated by traffic fines," City Manager Wayne A. Cauthen wrote in the city budget submission in February 2006.
A few months later, a joint venture between German speed camera vendor Traffipax and Canada's Delcan Corporation hired Worley. The companies then sought to use Worley to ensure that his former employers would select them to operate the ticket program. On January 11, as reported by The Kansas City Star newspaper, Worley sent an email to city officials.
"As Kansas City continues to evaluate proposals, we hope that you will consider this important additional information," the email stated. "Ask [Gladstone city officials] why they feel our team stands above the rest."
The email violated a city ordinance banning employees who have left within a year from influencing any decisions that might personally enrich the former employee. Worley told the Star he had been unaware of that law when he sent the note.
On March 9, the city selected Worley's firm to manage the red light camera and speed camera contract. A lobbyist for rival camera vendor ATS is crying foul and wants the decision reconsidered. At least one city councilman agrees.
Steve WorleyCity employees who promote the acceptance of lucrative photo enforcement contracts are often rewarded with high-paying jobs at the firms that land the rights to issue automated tickets. In Kansas City, Missouri this revolving door has triggered ethics questions regarding a contract to issue up to $60 million in tickets.
City Traffic Engineer Steve Worley helped convince Kansas City officials that it was in their best interests to embrace speed cameras and red light cameras. These officials, desperate to fill a multimillion dollar budget gap, eventually agreed with the plan.
"The implementation of photo-radar would also have positive benefits from additional revenues generated by traffic fines," City Manager Wayne A. Cauthen wrote in the city budget submission in February 2006.
A few months later, a joint venture between German speed camera vendor Traffipax and Canada's Delcan Corporation hired Worley. The companies then sought to use Worley to ensure that his former employers would select them to operate the ticket program. On January 11, as reported by The Kansas City Star newspaper, Worley sent an email to city officials.
"As Kansas City continues to evaluate proposals, we hope that you will consider this important additional information," the email stated. "Ask [Gladstone city officials] why they feel our team stands above the rest."
The email violated a city ordinance banning employees who have left within a year from influencing any decisions that might personally enrich the former employee. Worley told the Star he had been unaware of that law when he sent the note.
On March 9, the city selected Worley's firm to manage the red light camera and speed camera contract. A lobbyist for rival camera vendor ATS is crying foul and wants the decision reconsidered. At least one city councilman agrees.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,027
Likes: 5
From: Folsom, CA
Re: Red Light Camera
I ran a red light yesterday. The light was for a freeway onramp. At the onramp the freeway is recessed below the surrounding area. Because the freeway is much lower than the surrounding streets, it is very long and relatively steep. The onramp is two lanes wide narrowing to one lane where it actually intersects with the freeway. It was about noon and freeway traffic was very light and traveling at 70 MPH. I was accelerating down the ramp and looking over my left shoulder to see the oncoming traffic. I turned my head to the front to notice that the red metering light was actually on. There was no one behind me so I hit the brakes fairly hard. Because I was going downhill I was not slowing much. I could continue to brake and slide past the red light signal or just lift off and gun it to enter the flow of traffic now running at 70 MPH. I chose the latter.
WTF, why was the meter on at noon with little traffic??? Why would it be necessary to stop and then do a quarter mile sprint to enter the traffic flow?
I use this onramp all the time and there is no flashing "meter on" sign like there is at most onramps. Thankfully there was no camera on the unit. Could this be a new source of revenue? Has anyone seen a camera on the onramps.
WTF, why was the meter on at noon with little traffic??? Why would it be necessary to stop and then do a quarter mile sprint to enter the traffic flow?
I use this onramp all the time and there is no flashing "meter on" sign like there is at most onramps. Thankfully there was no camera on the unit. Could this be a new source of revenue? Has anyone seen a camera on the onramps.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,325
Likes: 777
From: Central South Carolina
Re: Red Light Camera
Just pay the damn ticket, and stop running red lights!
I get sick and tired of cars moving through intersections long after the light has turned red. There is a minimum of two seconds of a yellow (by law) at every intersection before the red turns on, so these people are over two seconds late in entering an intersection. Are you in that much of a hurry that your willing to broadside/wreck someone as well as yourself?
Give me (and everyone else on the road) a break, not a WRECK! What some people would do to 'get out' of a ticket..... Jeeze...
Funny thing about all of this, its because people DON'T know how to drive, that they end up being idiots behind the wheel.
She can ride with me ;)
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 3
From: Sharon, PA
Re: Red Light Camera
Traffic lights on on-ramps are very dangerous. It seems that the various state dept's of transportation around this country have lost their minds. Or, they've downsized everyone that understood the original design of the traffic system.
They seem to think that if there is any problem (read accidents in a certain area) that the only solution is to stop more traffic. Oh yeah, THAT will help! Let's have some more grid-lock please. Let's encourage road rage, let's make more people late so that they're always in a hurry. Let's keep people in their vehicles even longer - sitting doing nothing - so they're encouraged to do something else, like talk on the cell phone, mess with the GPS or stereo, type emails on their phones, read the newspaper, whatever. Yeah, THAT will make our roadways safer.
IDIOTS!
The whole idea of an on-ramp is to transition local (slow) traffic into the flow of highway (fast) traffic. Just as the whole idea of an off-ramp is to transition fast traffic into slow traffic. Vehicles need time and room to make that speed change, especially larger vehicles like semi-trucks. The whole idea behind both on and off ramps is to allow this transition in a separate space so that it does NOT interfere with the local or highway traffic flow. By the end of the on or off ramp, the merging vehicle is supposed to have matched the speed of the other traffic flow. Putting a red light or a stop sign in the mix throws this whole design out the window! Sure it may be appropriate to put a red light or a stop light at the end of an off-ramp, but NEVER for an on-ramp.
Dammit! This kind of thinking (or actually it is not thinking) is what really pisses me off about modern traffic management and road design. They create more dangerous situations in order to solve a problem. It only exacerbates the problem, and then they wonder why the number or accidents goes up every year!
They seem to think that if there is any problem (read accidents in a certain area) that the only solution is to stop more traffic. Oh yeah, THAT will help! Let's have some more grid-lock please. Let's encourage road rage, let's make more people late so that they're always in a hurry. Let's keep people in their vehicles even longer - sitting doing nothing - so they're encouraged to do something else, like talk on the cell phone, mess with the GPS or stereo, type emails on their phones, read the newspaper, whatever. Yeah, THAT will make our roadways safer.
IDIOTS!
The whole idea of an on-ramp is to transition local (slow) traffic into the flow of highway (fast) traffic. Just as the whole idea of an off-ramp is to transition fast traffic into slow traffic. Vehicles need time and room to make that speed change, especially larger vehicles like semi-trucks. The whole idea behind both on and off ramps is to allow this transition in a separate space so that it does NOT interfere with the local or highway traffic flow. By the end of the on or off ramp, the merging vehicle is supposed to have matched the speed of the other traffic flow. Putting a red light or a stop sign in the mix throws this whole design out the window! Sure it may be appropriate to put a red light or a stop light at the end of an off-ramp, but NEVER for an on-ramp.
Dammit! This kind of thinking (or actually it is not thinking) is what really pisses me off about modern traffic management and road design. They create more dangerous situations in order to solve a problem. It only exacerbates the problem, and then they wonder why the number or accidents goes up every year!
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,228
Likes: 9
From: KC, Kansas
Re: Red Light Camera
No way there was 2 seconds of yellow when I got photographed.....It was only because of the great Crossfire OEM brakes & my being such a GREAT DRIVER that I was able to stop before the intersection.
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Austin, TX
Re: Red Light Camera
DWI tragedy caught on tape in North Texas | kvue.com | KVUE home
This is one good reason for red light cameras! I hear it's a $70 ticket, and it doesn't go on your record in Texas.
This is one good reason for red light cameras! I hear it's a $70 ticket, and it doesn't go on your record in Texas.
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 707
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
Re: Red Light Camera
Originally Posted by tom2112
Traffic lights on on-ramps are very dangerous. It seems that the various state dept's of transportation around this country have lost their minds. Or, they've downsized everyone that understood the original design of the traffic system.
They seem to think that if there is any problem (read accidents in a certain area) that the only solution is to stop more traffic. Oh yeah, THAT will help! Let's have some more grid-lock please. Let's encourage road rage, let's make more people late so that they're always in a hurry. Let's keep people in their vehicles even longer - sitting doing nothing - so they're encouraged to do something else, like talk on the cell phone, mess with the GPS or stereo, type emails on their phones, read the newspaper, whatever. Yeah, THAT will make our roadways safer.
IDIOTS!
The whole idea of an on-ramp is to transition local (slow) traffic into the flow of highway (fast) traffic. Just as the whole idea of an off-ramp is to transition fast traffic into slow traffic. Vehicles need time and room to make that speed change, especially larger vehicles like semi-trucks. The whole idea behind both on and off ramps is to allow this transition in a separate space so that it does NOT interfere with the local or highway traffic flow. By the end of the on or off ramp, the merging vehicle is supposed to have matched the speed of the other traffic flow. Putting a red light or a stop sign in the mix throws this whole design out the window! Sure it may be appropriate to put a red light or a stop light at the end of an off-ramp, but NEVER for an on-ramp.
Dammit! This kind of thinking (or actually it is not thinking) is what really pisses me off about modern traffic management and road design. They create more dangerous situations in order to solve a problem. It only exacerbates the problem, and then they wonder why the number or accidents goes up every year!
They seem to think that if there is any problem (read accidents in a certain area) that the only solution is to stop more traffic. Oh yeah, THAT will help! Let's have some more grid-lock please. Let's encourage road rage, let's make more people late so that they're always in a hurry. Let's keep people in their vehicles even longer - sitting doing nothing - so they're encouraged to do something else, like talk on the cell phone, mess with the GPS or stereo, type emails on their phones, read the newspaper, whatever. Yeah, THAT will make our roadways safer.
IDIOTS!
The whole idea of an on-ramp is to transition local (slow) traffic into the flow of highway (fast) traffic. Just as the whole idea of an off-ramp is to transition fast traffic into slow traffic. Vehicles need time and room to make that speed change, especially larger vehicles like semi-trucks. The whole idea behind both on and off ramps is to allow this transition in a separate space so that it does NOT interfere with the local or highway traffic flow. By the end of the on or off ramp, the merging vehicle is supposed to have matched the speed of the other traffic flow. Putting a red light or a stop sign in the mix throws this whole design out the window! Sure it may be appropriate to put a red light or a stop light at the end of an off-ramp, but NEVER for an on-ramp.
Dammit! This kind of thinking (or actually it is not thinking) is what really pisses me off about modern traffic management and road design. They create more dangerous situations in order to solve a problem. It only exacerbates the problem, and then they wonder why the number or accidents goes up every year!
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,325
Likes: 777
From: Central South Carolina
Re: Red Light Camera
Chris, the traffic light controllers have redundancy and safety built in. There are mandatory hardware set minimums and there is a device called a 'conflict monitor' that closely watches all aspects of the programming. All yellows in a controlled intersection has a minimum set standard of two seconds for a yellow. If any of these monitored points (which are many and varied depending on all the functions/options of the individual specific intersection) go out of its preset or minimum parameters, the whole intersection goes into safe mode. This results in one of two things. Either all intersections go to flashing red, or every one of the intersections goes flashing red with a through intersection going flashing yellow.
Time every yellow you find. Within milliseconds, they all will be a minimum of two seconds (given the lag of seeing the light change and hitting the on/off timer). Depending on the intersection, it may be programmed for a longer yellow, but it will never be less than two seconds. The hardware will not allow it to be programmed sooner than two seconds. The internal program and redundancy will trigger a failsafe intersection lockdown (flashing red for all, or flashing red on most with flashing yellow on one through street only).
She can ride with me ;)
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 3
From: Sharon, PA
Re: Red Light Camera
Originally Posted by Meowch
DWI tragedy caught on tape in North Texas | kvue.com | KVUE home
This is one good reason for red light cameras! I hear it's a $70 ticket, and it doesn't go on your record in Texas.
This is one good reason for red light cameras! I hear it's a $70 ticket, and it doesn't go on your record in Texas.
Red light cameras have NOTHING to do with safety and EVERYTHING to do with money.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,325
Likes: 777
From: Central South Carolina
Re: Red Light Camera
QUOTE " Red light cameras have NOTHING to do with safety and EVERYTHING to do with money. " You are serious, arent you.....
People who run red lights have everything to do with unsafe acts and nothing to do with individual freedom. If you disagree with traffic laws, don't get a drivers license and have everyone drive you around everywhere. Better yet, if you are running red lights then sell your cars/trucks and hire someone to take you everywhere. WTH gives anyone the right to blow intersections? Is it worth the few minutes extra? I bet those charged with a felony while blowing red lights (felonies usually involve injuries or deaths) bet they could set the time machine back to seconds before they approached the intersection where they blew the red light. Not even I like getting stopped by the man (like I did speeding on the interstate) but when I got stopped and ticketed, I did a self reflection and realized the rules are there for everyones sake, not just for the majority. Paying a fine is feedback that it costs, depending on the 'infraction' it costs a little or a lot. Paying the fine also should remind you it very well could have been much worse. Man (or woman) up, drive like an adult, and pay when you let your inner child operate your vehicle like a renagade frustrated race car driver on public roadways. The two second rule applies to the yellow (sometimes longer than two seconds but never shorter) lights. Many don't pay any attention to driving while driving. Many don't care about paying attention while driving. It is for these reasons and many more, that I fully support more traffic cams. Yes, even I need the incentive of a ticket sometimes, to remind me to slow down and be respectful of everyone else on the road. If I get hurt in the wallet, it makes an impression. Oh, the increase in any insurance rates is another incentive, for not getting too many tickets. Especially one running a red light or two, three...
She can ride with me ;)
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 3
From: Sharon, PA
Re: Red Light Camera
Ghost: what part of my statement do you think endorses running red lights or disobeying laws? Did you read what I said? It doesn't seem to me that you did.
I am pointing out that red light cameras do NOT make the roads of our great nation any safer. All they appear to be doing is issuing tickets and raking in funds for their owners. Those two points underline how the city governments that employ red light cameras would rather have money than safe citizens. What part of that makes you think that I endorse running red lights or breaking the law?
Did you even read the entire thread? If you had, you would have read above where I said:
So if you feel the need to interject your sermons on how to be a law abiding citizen, at least read the posts first.
I am pointing out that red light cameras do NOT make the roads of our great nation any safer. All they appear to be doing is issuing tickets and raking in funds for their owners. Those two points underline how the city governments that employ red light cameras would rather have money than safe citizens. What part of that makes you think that I endorse running red lights or breaking the law?
Did you even read the entire thread? If you had, you would have read above where I said:
Originally Posted by tom2112
I'm not arguing the legality of running a light. That's wrong and unsafe whether someone catches you (cop or camera) or not. The point of my anger is the system of revenue generation is the FIRST priority, rather than the safety of the citizenry or the enforcement of the laws of the land.