New IC Tank Design
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,508
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From: VA
Re: New IC Tank Design
Brian have you been able to get any measurments of the insulation's improvement so far? Are you seeing any temperature decreases?
I wanted to know if you have and IAT gauge, if so could you provide some info on its price and source, thanks Woody. ... enjoy
I wanted to know if you have and IAT gauge, if so could you provide some info on its price and source, thanks Woody. ... enjoy
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 743
Likes: 1
From: Jacksonville, FL
Re: New IC Tank Design
Originally Posted by tom2112
There's SOOOOO many jokes here, I just don't know where to begin! 
Big Johnson coolant pumps....... You fill in the rest
Thread Starter
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<--- Huge Horsepower
Re: New IC Tank Design
My inital results were incouraging - but I did noticed one issue.
The IC Coolant is now 55 Deg F cooler then the stock setup.
Before (Stock) - this was on a cool day in April.
NOW - on a warm day in June
The after photo was taken today - on a 85 - 90 Deg Day after a 1.5 hour run.
When just cruzing and not boosting: The IAT gauge shows 15 - 20 Deg F temp over Ambient OAT - where before it was around 35 - 40 Deg F
https://www.crossfireforum.org/galle...ry.php/cat/908
Today the IAT's still climbed up to 30 - 35 deg when I boosted hard but not to 50 - 55 Deg above like before - again see my gallery.
So I am pleased with the results. BTW - I did not test with ICE of any kind today.
Now the Bad:
Prior to this mod when I would boost hard and then let up - the IAT's would drop back down as long as the SRT was moving air past the HE - if I came to a stop - the IAT's would rage. Today it seemed like it took a lot longer for the IAT's to come back down. I'm not sure if it was due to the hotter weather, or if the ceramic insulation-heat wrap I added is now insulating the hot IC casing after boosting and not allowing it to dissipate heat.
At first I was concerned that something went wrong; so I pulled over into the shade while in the canyon and opened the IC tank to see if I had lost coolant or if the pump had stopped - well I could see the coolant flowing thru the tank like gang busters and noticed how cool it was - so I stuck my finger into the coolant and discovered it was luke warm to the touch but not hot - very nice. When I got home I grabbed my camera and an old temp gauge for my Harley and snapped the above picture. - not to bad for a hot day!!
Prior to this mod, one of the biggest IAT issues I noticed was when; after driving and the engine a full operating temperature - I would stop and shut the SRT down (say to have lunch or dinner at a restaurant) and when I re-start the SRT - the IAT's had skyrocketed. I took this has heat soak cooking the IC with now coolant flowing in the IC or the HE - This problem is now almost gone - I think the heat wrap contributed to this but it may have also added to the other problem.
I hope to test the system with dry ice later this week now that I can see the coolant temp is around 100 Deg F. I feel it can be cooled even more with ice - but for how long and how it will effect the IAT's I will see.
More to follow...
The IC Coolant is now 55 Deg F cooler then the stock setup.
Before (Stock) - this was on a cool day in April.
NOW - on a warm day in June
The after photo was taken today - on a 85 - 90 Deg Day after a 1.5 hour run.
When just cruzing and not boosting: The IAT gauge shows 15 - 20 Deg F temp over Ambient OAT - where before it was around 35 - 40 Deg F
https://www.crossfireforum.org/galle...ry.php/cat/908
Today the IAT's still climbed up to 30 - 35 deg when I boosted hard but not to 50 - 55 Deg above like before - again see my gallery.
So I am pleased with the results. BTW - I did not test with ICE of any kind today.
Now the Bad:
Prior to this mod when I would boost hard and then let up - the IAT's would drop back down as long as the SRT was moving air past the HE - if I came to a stop - the IAT's would rage. Today it seemed like it took a lot longer for the IAT's to come back down. I'm not sure if it was due to the hotter weather, or if the ceramic insulation-heat wrap I added is now insulating the hot IC casing after boosting and not allowing it to dissipate heat.
At first I was concerned that something went wrong; so I pulled over into the shade while in the canyon and opened the IC tank to see if I had lost coolant or if the pump had stopped - well I could see the coolant flowing thru the tank like gang busters and noticed how cool it was - so I stuck my finger into the coolant and discovered it was luke warm to the touch but not hot - very nice. When I got home I grabbed my camera and an old temp gauge for my Harley and snapped the above picture. - not to bad for a hot day!!
Prior to this mod, one of the biggest IAT issues I noticed was when; after driving and the engine a full operating temperature - I would stop and shut the SRT down (say to have lunch or dinner at a restaurant) and when I re-start the SRT - the IAT's had skyrocketed. I took this has heat soak cooking the IC with now coolant flowing in the IC or the HE - This problem is now almost gone - I think the heat wrap contributed to this but it may have also added to the other problem.
I hope to test the system with dry ice later this week now that I can see the coolant temp is around 100 Deg F. I feel it can be cooled even more with ice - but for how long and how it will effect the IAT's I will see.
More to follow...
Thread Starter
|
<--- Huge Horsepower
Re: New IC Tank Design
Originally Posted by BlUEMDsrt6
Very interesting, I was thinking of doing just that. Is that DEI Cool Tape?
I still owe him a write up as he was hot-dog over sports cars..
Originally Posted by Dave Lowe
Hi Brianbrave,,I just got my SRT6 roadster and I live in Westlake Village do you have a list of local shops that I can get some of these items done like this?I don't know much about our car yet but you seem to know alot!,,,Thanks, DL
I will send you a PM latter this week. Great choice on the new car BTW.
Originally Posted by waldig
I wanted to know if you have and IAT gauge, if so could you provide some info on its price and source, thanks Woody. ... enjoy
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Re: New IC Tank Design
Originally Posted by BrianBrave
...Prior to this mod, one of the biggest IAT issues I noticed was when; after driving and the engine a full operating temperature - I would stop and shut the SRT down (say to have lunch or dinner at a restaurant) and when I re-start the SRT - the IAT's had skyrocketed. I took this has heat soak cooking the IC with now coolant flowing in the IC or the HE - This problem is now almost gone - I think the heat wrap contributed to this but it may have also added to the other problem...
I suggest additional means of extracting heat from the liquid should be employed, such as fans or a larger heat exchanger.
BTW, your insulation job will really help when you run ice in the reservoir by mitigating heat transfer from the motor.
Thread Starter
|
<--- Huge Horsepower
Re: New IC Tank Design
Originally Posted by ChicagoX
I believe what you are experiencing is due to the larger volume of liquid acting as a heat sink. It will take longer to heat up, but will also take longer to cool down.
I suggest additional means of extracting heat from the liquid should be employed, such as fans or a larger heat exchanger.
BTW, your insulation job will really help when you run ice in the reservoir by mitigating heat transfer from the motor.
I suggest additional means of extracting heat from the liquid should be employed, such as fans or a larger heat exchanger.
BTW, your insulation job will really help when you run ice in the reservoir by mitigating heat transfer from the motor.
This evening after work I went on a "little run" - first south on the highway about 15 miles - nice and easy - then exited Kanan road towards the beach. OAT was 91 deg - got past town - and with no traffic I just got on it hard - I was running around 18-20 PSI and keeping my speed up (no traffic - lots of turns and twists - it was great) to the top of the Santa Monica mountains - IAT peaked at 150Deg - and that's after 7-10 miles of some hard A$$ driving - once at the top, there was a light fog from the Pacific Ocean and the OAT dropped to 70 Deg - so I let off the gas and coasted all the way down to the beach - the IAT dropped quickly to 105 Deg and then after some time got down to 97 Deg.
The IC coolant never gets hotter then 105Deg with this system - I can stick my finger in the coolant at any time - I feel that the actual IC core is only so efficient with the intake air moving so fast.
I enjoyed a little cruz down PCH, then to Malibu Canyon Road and back up to the freeway - where I stopped (I was on empty and sweating it just a bit) and filled up with 100 Octane fuel from the pump. (6.49 Gal) - I'm ready to go again tomorrow after work - then on WED - some Dry Ice testing. This is turning out to be a great mod..
Gotta go check on the status of my headers.....
Last edited by BrianBrave; Jun 9, 2008 at 08:13 PM.
Thread Starter
|
<--- Huge Horsepower
Re: New IC Tank Design
Before I start – I noticed with my IAT gauge and before any of the above mods; when I was driving hard and the IAT’s were way up, If I were to pull over and stop the engine – similar to running a ¼ mile and then pulling into the pits and shutting down – when I would re-start in an ½ hour or so – the IAT’s would be raging – with no air or coolant flowing thru the IC – the temps just skyrocket. My mods and my tests today with icing where an attempt to combat and tame the IAT’s.
DRY ICE ALONE:
With the SRT shut down after being driven somewhat hard and the IAT's showing around 125 deg and the engine temp gauge at the 1/2 way mark, I could reduce the IC coolant temp from 105 deg to under 50 Deg (cold has my thermometer displays) by adding lots and lots of dry ice, running the pump to circulate the warm coolant trapped in the system back into the tank and then keep adding dry ice. Remember, my pump is set up to run with just the key turned on.
Problem with this was the dry ice makes so much pressure by releasing CO2, that when I capped the IC tank - the vapor (looks like smoke from a witches brew) would shoot out of the overflow tube and hiss – no doubt you could get black flagged before you ever got staged. So I waited until all the CO2 escaped and started the engine - the IAT gauge at risen to 140 deg and would only cool back down to around 120 deg when idling. I went about 1/2 way around the block - not boosting - similar to going from the pits to staging - I pulled over - opened the hood and IC tank cap and stuck my thermometer in the IC tank – the coolant had already risen to 105 deg. I figured the warm outside air flowing around the HE, along with the hot intake air flowing through the IC core had warmed the coolant back up very quickly.
DRY ICE AND WET ICE COMBO
So I went back to the garage and I repeated the above process - only this time I removed about 1/3 of the coolant from the tank - chilled the remaining coolant back down with dry ice, waited for the CO2 to stop, then filled the tank up with distilled ice. Re-started the SRT and drove around the block - stopped and checked the temp of the tank coolant - around 80 Deg – better - got back in and drove down a little side street with my IAT dropping pretty quickly to 110 deg and then stomped on it to engage the SC – and IAT's rose quickly to 125 deg. This was the best I could do.
BOTTOM LINE
This “ice therapy” would only be effective for a very short time – enough for a ¼ mile run if you can get staged quickly. Otherwise the ambient air temp / intake air is going to warm the coolant up.
I would say that with the factory-stock setup – after a few runs you would be staging with IAT’s around 145-165 deg. By just separating the engine and IC coolant - - and no ice you could reduce IAT's temps down 25-30 deg at staging and with the “Ice Therapy” and perhaps a big bag of dry ice on top of the supercharger while waiting in the pits – you could stage with IAT’s at 110 - 100 deg or less – depending on the OAT and the time it took to stage. But that would only be at staging - once the SC begins to spin…….but it would be a better starting point.
IMO - Serious racers would probably do better with a water/meth injection system. The HE and IC are only so efficient – best you can hope for is the HE to reduce the coolant to around 15-25 deg above ambient; perhaps more on a real cold day. The IC core is even more inefficient - no matter how hot or how cool my IAT gauge would read – the IC coolant was pretty stable at 105 deg. I would say that the IC is only good at reducing IAT’s when the temps begin to really rage when the SC kicks in. After that you would need to chill the IC coolant beyond what can really be done or sustained for any length of time.
Separating the IC coolant and the engine coolant had the best overall effect long term on both the IC coolant temp and the IAT’s. After that everything else is short lived. I don’t even think that running the pump all the time is all that effective has the IC does very little to cool the IAT’s when the supercharger is not engaged. It might help on cars that spin the SC all the time, but not the Crossfire.
Wrapping the intercooler seems to help prevent heat soak. It now takes longer for the IAT’s to rise when the engine is warm – my wrap’s big advantage is when you shut the engine down - it help keeps the IC core from cooking and making the system work that much harder to cool.
It was a fun mod – not too darn expensive – only the cost of the two tanks were above what I would have paid for the LET HE and pump any way.
Good luck guys!!
DRY ICE ALONE:
With the SRT shut down after being driven somewhat hard and the IAT's showing around 125 deg and the engine temp gauge at the 1/2 way mark, I could reduce the IC coolant temp from 105 deg to under 50 Deg (cold has my thermometer displays) by adding lots and lots of dry ice, running the pump to circulate the warm coolant trapped in the system back into the tank and then keep adding dry ice. Remember, my pump is set up to run with just the key turned on.
Problem with this was the dry ice makes so much pressure by releasing CO2, that when I capped the IC tank - the vapor (looks like smoke from a witches brew) would shoot out of the overflow tube and hiss – no doubt you could get black flagged before you ever got staged. So I waited until all the CO2 escaped and started the engine - the IAT gauge at risen to 140 deg and would only cool back down to around 120 deg when idling. I went about 1/2 way around the block - not boosting - similar to going from the pits to staging - I pulled over - opened the hood and IC tank cap and stuck my thermometer in the IC tank – the coolant had already risen to 105 deg. I figured the warm outside air flowing around the HE, along with the hot intake air flowing through the IC core had warmed the coolant back up very quickly.
DRY ICE AND WET ICE COMBO
So I went back to the garage and I repeated the above process - only this time I removed about 1/3 of the coolant from the tank - chilled the remaining coolant back down with dry ice, waited for the CO2 to stop, then filled the tank up with distilled ice. Re-started the SRT and drove around the block - stopped and checked the temp of the tank coolant - around 80 Deg – better - got back in and drove down a little side street with my IAT dropping pretty quickly to 110 deg and then stomped on it to engage the SC – and IAT's rose quickly to 125 deg. This was the best I could do.
BOTTOM LINE
This “ice therapy” would only be effective for a very short time – enough for a ¼ mile run if you can get staged quickly. Otherwise the ambient air temp / intake air is going to warm the coolant up.
I would say that with the factory-stock setup – after a few runs you would be staging with IAT’s around 145-165 deg. By just separating the engine and IC coolant - - and no ice you could reduce IAT's temps down 25-30 deg at staging and with the “Ice Therapy” and perhaps a big bag of dry ice on top of the supercharger while waiting in the pits – you could stage with IAT’s at 110 - 100 deg or less – depending on the OAT and the time it took to stage. But that would only be at staging - once the SC begins to spin…….but it would be a better starting point.
IMO - Serious racers would probably do better with a water/meth injection system. The HE and IC are only so efficient – best you can hope for is the HE to reduce the coolant to around 15-25 deg above ambient; perhaps more on a real cold day. The IC core is even more inefficient - no matter how hot or how cool my IAT gauge would read – the IC coolant was pretty stable at 105 deg. I would say that the IC is only good at reducing IAT’s when the temps begin to really rage when the SC kicks in. After that you would need to chill the IC coolant beyond what can really be done or sustained for any length of time.
Separating the IC coolant and the engine coolant had the best overall effect long term on both the IC coolant temp and the IAT’s. After that everything else is short lived. I don’t even think that running the pump all the time is all that effective has the IC does very little to cool the IAT’s when the supercharger is not engaged. It might help on cars that spin the SC all the time, but not the Crossfire.
Wrapping the intercooler seems to help prevent heat soak. It now takes longer for the IAT’s to rise when the engine is warm – my wrap’s big advantage is when you shut the engine down - it help keeps the IC core from cooking and making the system work that much harder to cool.
It was a fun mod – not too darn expensive – only the cost of the two tanks were above what I would have paid for the LET HE and pump any way.
Good luck guys!!
Thread Starter
|
<--- Huge Horsepower
Thread Starter
|
<--- Huge Horsepower
Re: New IC Tank Design
Originally Posted by ChicagoX
AWESOME PICS !!!
Thanks for your detailed write-up. May I ask what volume your new tank holds?
Thanks for your detailed write-up. May I ask what volume your new tank holds?
Thread Starter
|
<--- Huge Horsepower
Re: New IC Tank Design
Originally Posted by waldig
I have been very involved with cooling changes and have to ask, does your change allow for the two lines to flow into and out of the tank to promote the expulsion of air?
No - a surge tank only allows water to "surge" into the tank when it heats up (expands); (and return when it cools) which also allows the air to escape as the pressure builds. Plus it's the single location to add coolant to both systems.
The stock tank has two lines out and the one inlet to purge the twin circuits and I find that watching the fluid, there is a lot of bubbles that have to get out of the system after it is opened for any changes or service.
I also want to ask if the larger tank should not be for the engine fluid instead and the smaller one for the smaller circuit of intercooler fluid, especially in light of the much lower operating temperatures (120 versis 190 for the motor) thats it operates at?
No - I considred using a black plastic surge tank from a BMW that was about the same size (volume) and about the same price - it just wouldn't mount right and clear the intake tube. Mine has worked fine so far. No overflows or overheating.
The air temperature next to the "surge tank" is above 140 and that heat gain due to the size of the tank would be therefore greater than the smaller tank.
Personally I have instrumented the tank and found that the H/E circuit does not flow into or out of the tank, the pump does not cause much flow and the vent is for the passage of the air.
This is true - but no fluid actually flows thru the stock tank - our stock plastic surge tank is made up of seven isolated chambers with small holes on the bottom of the walls to interconnect the fluid - this is why it would not work in my application as a "flow" tank.
Six chambers are on the bottom and one small chamber on the top where the over flow tubes connect. if you look at the diagram below - the seventh chamber is the one with the orange hose connected to it. According to the maintenance manual - you must remove that hose and drain that chamber manually (if) when it becomes full. Usually during boil over.
If you seperate your IC coolant and radiator coolant by adding the 28OZ tank on the radiator shroud like I used and keep the stock surge tank for the IC coolant, the above diagram is exactly how your separated IC coolant system will look.
Missing from that diagram (how it all works stock) is the second orange overflow hose from the driver side of the car that runs over the radiator and second red hose on the bottom of plastic surge tank that runs to the bottom of the radiator on the passanger side.
Both of those hoses would now route to the new (added) surge tank.
PLEASE NOTE:
THe hose across the top of the radiator starting on the driver side and going into the wye pipe on the passenger side DOES flow significant amounts of HOT water and is for venting the radiator.
EDIT** I put my air blower up tight to the small tube on top and blew - and low and behold - with enough pressure - air flowed into the bottom section - not sure if mine was clogged or if there is some sort of valve - but it did flow
For my purposes, I have restricted this rate of flow AND ADDED FILTRATION TO THIS PATH of the water system. In my experience there is a lot of crud and or crap in the water system, I seek conformation on this point from others that have checked the water as IT COMES OUT OF THE RADIATOR DRAIN.
Something must have gotten into your coolant. Both my IC and Engine coolant is clean as a whislte. I can watch my IC fluid flow in my new tank and its always clean.
Woody Party on
No - a surge tank only allows water to "surge" into the tank when it heats up (expands); (and return when it cools) which also allows the air to escape as the pressure builds. Plus it's the single location to add coolant to both systems.
The stock tank has two lines out and the one inlet to purge the twin circuits and I find that watching the fluid, there is a lot of bubbles that have to get out of the system after it is opened for any changes or service.
I also want to ask if the larger tank should not be for the engine fluid instead and the smaller one for the smaller circuit of intercooler fluid, especially in light of the much lower operating temperatures (120 versis 190 for the motor) thats it operates at?
No - I considred using a black plastic surge tank from a BMW that was about the same size (volume) and about the same price - it just wouldn't mount right and clear the intake tube. Mine has worked fine so far. No overflows or overheating.
The air temperature next to the "surge tank" is above 140 and that heat gain due to the size of the tank would be therefore greater than the smaller tank.
Personally I have instrumented the tank and found that the H/E circuit does not flow into or out of the tank, the pump does not cause much flow and the vent is for the passage of the air.
This is true - but no fluid actually flows thru the stock tank - our stock plastic surge tank is made up of seven isolated chambers with small holes on the bottom of the walls to interconnect the fluid - this is why it would not work in my application as a "flow" tank.
Six chambers are on the bottom and one small chamber on the top where the over flow tubes connect. if you look at the diagram below - the seventh chamber is the one with the orange hose connected to it. According to the maintenance manual - you must remove that hose and drain that chamber manually (if) when it becomes full. Usually during boil over.
If you seperate your IC coolant and radiator coolant by adding the 28OZ tank on the radiator shroud like I used and keep the stock surge tank for the IC coolant, the above diagram is exactly how your separated IC coolant system will look.
Missing from that diagram (how it all works stock) is the second orange overflow hose from the driver side of the car that runs over the radiator and second red hose on the bottom of plastic surge tank that runs to the bottom of the radiator on the passanger side.
Both of those hoses would now route to the new (added) surge tank.
PLEASE NOTE:
THe hose across the top of the radiator starting on the driver side and going into the wye pipe on the passenger side DOES flow significant amounts of HOT water and is for venting the radiator.
EDIT** I put my air blower up tight to the small tube on top and blew - and low and behold - with enough pressure - air flowed into the bottom section - not sure if mine was clogged or if there is some sort of valve - but it did flow
For my purposes, I have restricted this rate of flow AND ADDED FILTRATION TO THIS PATH of the water system. In my experience there is a lot of crud and or crap in the water system, I seek conformation on this point from others that have checked the water as IT COMES OUT OF THE RADIATOR DRAIN.
Something must have gotten into your coolant. Both my IC and Engine coolant is clean as a whislte. I can watch my IC fluid flow in my new tank and its always clean.
Woody Party on
I will answer any questions and I still owe you a reply to the questions you asked me in your PM you sent to me today.
But I have another concert to go to tonight and lunch time is over so I'm back on the bike and back to work.
Tell then...
Last edited by BrianBrave; Aug 13, 2008 at 04:24 PM.
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