Recent Injector Upgrades
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 197
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From: Bradford, Ontario, Canada
Recent Injector Upgrades
Hey folks, im looking to see if anyone can chime in on the current available options for injector upgrades.
I did some rummaging thru the forum a week ago, and mainly found threads from around 3-4 years ago talking about this one company (on the east coast?), that had upgraded injectors for our modified cars, yet they seem to be out of business.. I cant remember the name off the top of my head...
Anyways, what do folks suggest?
This fuel fun, all started a few weeks ago where I finally got around to installing a wideband o2 on the car to watch the fueling.. I always had a suspicion that I was running lean under boost many years ago. And because I don't really drive the car too often, this upgrade had been procrastinated to the max.
Sure enough im seeing high 12's at higher rpms.. And uncomfortable mid 13's at low boost below 3000rpm.. Would like it to be richer.
Im running the 185mm crank pulley with all the intake and cooling mods one would expect.
I upgraded to the SL/G55 fuel pump last week (pierburg 7.00228.51.0 , 001 470 49 94), and it helped bring afr's down about 0.5... but I still want to see it in the 11.8's area.
Im thinking to upgrade the injectors, and try and make it down to eurocharged Toronto office, and see if we can do a little dyno tuning.
I did some rummaging thru the forum a week ago, and mainly found threads from around 3-4 years ago talking about this one company (on the east coast?), that had upgraded injectors for our modified cars, yet they seem to be out of business.. I cant remember the name off the top of my head...
Anyways, what do folks suggest?
This fuel fun, all started a few weeks ago where I finally got around to installing a wideband o2 on the car to watch the fueling.. I always had a suspicion that I was running lean under boost many years ago. And because I don't really drive the car too often, this upgrade had been procrastinated to the max.
Sure enough im seeing high 12's at higher rpms.. And uncomfortable mid 13's at low boost below 3000rpm.. Would like it to be richer.
Im running the 185mm crank pulley with all the intake and cooling mods one would expect.
I upgraded to the SL/G55 fuel pump last week (pierburg 7.00228.51.0 , 001 470 49 94), and it helped bring afr's down about 0.5... but I still want to see it in the 11.8's area.
Im thinking to upgrade the injectors, and try and make it down to eurocharged Toronto office, and see if we can do a little dyno tuning.
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,404
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From: Mendocino, CA
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
Rob @ Needswings sells 440cc and 550cc injectors. As I understand it, if you installed the intakes w/ crossover modification, and get it tuned; you probably wouldn't need larger injectors. The crossover intakes lower the boost a bit,but allow more flow(power). Woody(Waldig)has a post about this somewhere on here.
Last edited by dinasrt; Aug 14, 2018 at 11:49 AM.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,709
Likes: 10
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
I agree with this and am in the process of doing my own crossover conversion. I would love to have Robs' but I am short on funds so I must take the DIY route when I can. But I digress, I had already gone the bigger injector route, using a company called Five-O Motor Sports. These have worked very well for me. I have just about every available mod plus a few of my own and if I must admit, the car is QUICK but I still average 22.7 mpG. All is good! I'll have to see what the crossover mod does.
Last edited by JEFASOLD; Jun 28, 2019 at 06:50 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,508
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From: VA
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
If you adjust the rail pressure the lean will likely be solved, the problem is not the injectors - it the boost holding back the fuel flow; i.e. pressure differential. Woody
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 560
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From: Northern Virginia
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
before crossover manifolds my AFR at 6200 rpm was 12.5 (a bit too lean) and wheel horse power was 340hp
after installing crossover manifolds the AFR went to 13.8 and wheel horse power was 296hp - no doubt because the ECU was pulling timing to prevent detonation.
So, after confirming that there were no air leaks as a result of the installation, there was only one change made. Crossovers. So, while it must be true that there is lower pressure on the fuel injectors, that does not help increase fuel delivery if the pump is maxed out relative to the additional oxygen/air being delivered to the cylinders. At least that's what the data from my N of 1 testing reveals.
The good news...there's a lot of additional air getting into the engine, especially at and above 4k rpm!! I expect significant gains therefore, once the engine gets more fuel...thus,
The bad news...I need more fuel flow. I'm hoping that adding the sl55, pn 7.00228.51.0 fuel pump will solve the problem.
any observations and/or suggestions are welcome.
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Germany
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
Thank you very very much for your data. Exactly what I expected – your data confirmed my considerations according the crossovers. Lower pressure on your MAP-sensor – less fuel – thats the way the ecu works. You only need a tune!!!
If you look in the supercharger map – you see – lowering boost pressure gives you possibly only 2-3% more air flow. Additional high end power comes from this and less loss power of the supercharger. Mid range power comes from lower pressure differential (less fresh air loss) at valve overlap.
If you only make higher fuel pressure – the ecu will work against it – it will adapt to lamba=1 when cruising. Fuel injection time goes down. The adaption factor – I assume – will be multiplied on the wot-map. The adaption factor is ONE factor – it doesn´t differ on the rpm range – and that’s the problem.
The impact of removing the restriction is only on wot on high rpm – thats why you go lean – the dynamic pressure increases with air flow squared. With the crossovers dynamic pressure is nearly gone – (and it came only on high rpm). Your new tune should give you more fuel especially at high rpm.
Think about this: before removing the restriction – higher pressure is INDICATED. The sensors are infront of the restriction – behind it the pressure is lower. After removing the restriction – lower pressure is indicated – behind the sensors the pressure keeps the same.
If you look in the supercharger map – you see – lowering boost pressure gives you possibly only 2-3% more air flow. Additional high end power comes from this and less loss power of the supercharger. Mid range power comes from lower pressure differential (less fresh air loss) at valve overlap.
If you only make higher fuel pressure – the ecu will work against it – it will adapt to lamba=1 when cruising. Fuel injection time goes down. The adaption factor – I assume – will be multiplied on the wot-map. The adaption factor is ONE factor – it doesn´t differ on the rpm range – and that’s the problem.
The impact of removing the restriction is only on wot on high rpm – thats why you go lean – the dynamic pressure increases with air flow squared. With the crossovers dynamic pressure is nearly gone – (and it came only on high rpm). Your new tune should give you more fuel especially at high rpm.
Think about this: before removing the restriction – higher pressure is INDICATED. The sensors are infront of the restriction – behind it the pressure is lower. After removing the restriction – lower pressure is indicated – behind the sensors the pressure keeps the same.
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Joined: Oct 2013
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From: Northern Virginia
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
Thanks for the reply. What I can say is that the last tune I got prior to the crossovers, Jerry of Eurocharged who did the tune on the dyno told me there was no more fuel available in the then current setup and if I added more air I’d need more fuel for sure. Are you saying that I don’t need more fuel at the top end? Thanks in advance.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,508
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From: VA
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
Fuel is controlled by pressure and timing of the pintals. Computer is one variable the rail pressure is the other, I use 62 psig for my 185 from LET. Second pulley blew up and Iam now going to the 65 mm pulley - came yesterday when it was 17 degrees !!!!!!!!! Will get it on and see how I like the better approach, lower speed accessories and faster S/C pulley. Woody 
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Germany
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
Thanks for the reply. What I can say is that the last tune I got prior to the crossovers, Jerry of Eurocharged who did the tune on the dyno told me there was no more fuel available in the then current setup and if I added more air I’d need more fuel for sure. Are you saying that I don’t need more fuel at the top end? Thanks in advance.
Your ecu map gives you fuel injection time at a rpm and boost level. If your indicated boost level is lower – you get lower injection time. This explains the crappy afr after installing crossovers without changing software .
(… even if your fuel system is on its limit – with the right software, the afr would keep below 13 (... still to high!).)
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 560
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From: Northern Virginia
Crossovers and Recent Injector Upgrades
So, I installed the SL55 Kompressor fuel pump and while I have not yet done a dyno run, I can say with certainty that the power has been restored (at least) at the 4000-6200 rpm range. Although the butt dyno is not a valid test, all I can say is that my smile meter is now pegged when I hit the slanty pedal. I double checked with Jerry at Eurocharged and he said that I DON'T need a new tune and I should definitely expect that there is more whp now that the fuel is up to snuff. Once things get a bit warmer around here, I will get a dyno and a/f check to see where we are for a final report on the Needswings/Waldig Crossover tweaked manifolds.
Cheers,
Dave
Cheers,
Dave
Thanks for the reply. What I can say is that the last tune I got prior to the crossovers, Jerry of Eurocharged who did the tune on the dyno told me there was no more fuel available in the then current setup and if I added more air I’d need more fuel for sure. Are you saying that I don’t need more fuel at the top end? Thanks in advance.
-----------
Hi Woodie, After installing the crossover manifolds on my SRT6, I did a dyno run. I am listing the results below...
before crossover manifolds my AFR at 6200 rpm was 12.5 (a bit too lean) and wheel horse power was 340hp
after installing crossover manifolds the AFR went to 13.8 and wheel horse power was 296hp - no doubt because the ECU was pulling timing to prevent detonation.
So, after confirming that there were no air leaks as a result of the installation, there was only one change made. Crossovers. So, while it must be true that there is lower pressure on the fuel injectors, that does not help increase fuel delivery if the pump is maxed out relative to the additional oxygen/air being delivered to the cylinders. At least that's what the data from my N of 1 testing reveals.
The good news...there's a lot of additional air getting into the engine, especially at and above 4k rpm!! I expect significant gains therefore, once the engine gets more fuel...thus,
The bad news...I need more fuel flow. I'm hoping that adding the sl55, pn 7.00228.51.0 fuel pump will solve the problem.
any observations and/or suggestions are welcome.
-----------
Hi Woodie, After installing the crossover manifolds on my SRT6, I did a dyno run. I am listing the results below...
before crossover manifolds my AFR at 6200 rpm was 12.5 (a bit too lean) and wheel horse power was 340hp
after installing crossover manifolds the AFR went to 13.8 and wheel horse power was 296hp - no doubt because the ECU was pulling timing to prevent detonation.
So, after confirming that there were no air leaks as a result of the installation, there was only one change made. Crossovers. So, while it must be true that there is lower pressure on the fuel injectors, that does not help increase fuel delivery if the pump is maxed out relative to the additional oxygen/air being delivered to the cylinders. At least that's what the data from my N of 1 testing reveals.
The good news...there's a lot of additional air getting into the engine, especially at and above 4k rpm!! I expect significant gains therefore, once the engine gets more fuel...thus,
The bad news...I need more fuel flow. I'm hoping that adding the sl55, pn 7.00228.51.0 fuel pump will solve the problem.
any observations and/or suggestions are welcome.
Last edited by Da55id; Jan 10, 2019 at 01:32 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 197
Likes: 4
From: Bradford, Ontario, Canada
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
Well just an update. I ended up ordering injectors last year. And will probably install them this spring when i have time. I called eurocharged and they have a tune ready for those injectors so it should be an easy swap.
Since i last posted, i put a few more miles on the E55 fuel pump. One thing to note; its louder then the original pump, you can really hear it in the cabin.
The injectors FYI were Bosch EV14 550CC - 0280158117 a very popular injector for performance applications. And will require a power adaptor to fit the x-fire. I cant remember if they were EV6 to EV14?
Heres the thing im not impressed about. I bought the tune / 185 pulley from Jerry @ eurocharged many years ago, way before they have a location here in Canada. And part of the package was "free re-tunes" special promotion they had going on with the package. Now fast foward to today, i realize i would have to buy the remote programming kit for this scenario, i dont really want to drive down to the city with the upgraded injectors installed on the (stock injector) tune, and swapping injectors in the parking lot is not what i would want to do. So i gave them a ring, looking to order the remote tuning box, and for them to also send me the tune for the injectors to go with it... Low and behold they want me to pay for the tune file.
A bit of a rant, but dont try and **** off old time customers IMO. Hopefully it was just a misunderstanding.
Since i last posted, i put a few more miles on the E55 fuel pump. One thing to note; its louder then the original pump, you can really hear it in the cabin.
The injectors FYI were Bosch EV14 550CC - 0280158117 a very popular injector for performance applications. And will require a power adaptor to fit the x-fire. I cant remember if they were EV6 to EV14?
Heres the thing im not impressed about. I bought the tune / 185 pulley from Jerry @ eurocharged many years ago, way before they have a location here in Canada. And part of the package was "free re-tunes" special promotion they had going on with the package. Now fast foward to today, i realize i would have to buy the remote programming kit for this scenario, i dont really want to drive down to the city with the upgraded injectors installed on the (stock injector) tune, and swapping injectors in the parking lot is not what i would want to do. So i gave them a ring, looking to order the remote tuning box, and for them to also send me the tune for the injectors to go with it... Low and behold they want me to pay for the tune file.
A bit of a rant, but dont try and **** off old time customers IMO. Hopefully it was just a misunderstanding.
Last edited by Sik Srt-6; Mar 25, 2019 at 09:22 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,525
Likes: 29
From: Puerto Rico
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
When they changed from the free retunes, the new deal for prior tune purchasers was a discount on the retune. Something like $40. I've been on the same tune for 6 or more years so I'm not exactly up to date on the changes in what's charged and when.
Les
Les
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 197
Likes: 4
From: Bradford, Ontario, Canada
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
Thanks for letting me know, if that's the case, I will inquire and see what happens. I would be fine with that, I realise that they have to run a biz, so do I.
Last edited by Sik Srt-6; Mar 26, 2019 at 09:43 AM.
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Re: Recent Injector Upgrades
I agree with this and am in the process of doing my own crossover conversion. I would love to have Robs' but I am short on funds so I must take the DIY route when I can. But I digress, I had already gone the bigger injector route, using a company called Five-O Motor Sports. These have worked very well for me. I have just about every available mod plus a few of my own and if I must admit, the car is QUICK but I still average 22.7 mph. All is good! I'll have to see what the crossover mod does.
im from Oshawa I got my tune from Canada EC but I didn’t get the remote to tune it myself
I have to bring car car in for retunes as well
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Germany
Re: Crossovers and Recent Injector Upgrades
So, I installed the SL55 Kompressor fuel pump and while I have not yet done a dyno run, I can say with certainty that the power has been restored (at least) at the 4000-6200 rpm range. Although the butt dyno is not a valid test, all I can say is that my smile meter is now pegged when I hit the slanty pedal. I double checked with Jerry at Eurocharged and he said that I DON'T need a new tune and I should definitely expect that there is more whp now that the fuel is up to snuff. Once things get a bit warmer around here, I will get a dyno and a/f check to see where we are for a final report on the Needswings/Waldig Crossover tweaked manifolds.
Cheers,
Dave
Cheers,
Dave
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 560
Likes: 15
From: Northern Virginia
Re: Crossovers and Recent Injector Upgrades
Nope, not yet. Will try to get to it soon. I am very curious myself!
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