I asked this question on an old thread "Can not shift, clutch out?", but not sure anyone will answer.

I was driving my manual 6-speed 2004 XF, when suddenly I could no longer shift gears. The clutch pedal was impossible to push down. I could shift it into gears when the car was off, the pedal still did not move though.

After process of elimination, I have logically concluded the clutch pressure plate and disc need to be replaced. I don't believe it is the hydraulic system (ie. master and slave cylinder). Wondering if anyone has experienced this issue, and how they resolved it?

As I have experience changing pressure plates and disc, am I on the right track by changing them on my XF (obviously also changing the pilot bearing, throwout bearing, and seal)? Would hate to change this, when I should've done the hydraulic system, lol, which I strongly do not believe is the cause, otherwise my clutch pedal would be too soft, instead of it being too hard to push.

 

I don't have much experience in this area. I broke a clutch cable in a 60's car once and I could still shift it and managed to get home. When I had to stop I made sure to slip it in neutral on a hill. So it sounds like the transmission is OK. I had a slave cylinder full of air and the pedal would go to the floor and didn't want to return. You don't have air in the system. I've had a throw out bearing go bad and it sings and howls, so it's not the throw out bearing. Worn out clutches slip like crazy, a broken spring on the pressure plate causes a real rough engagement when letting out the clutch. (I'm going back to my youth experiences)

I've never had a pedal that couldn't be pushed down. Something failed completely in the area your looking at. If it was me I'd pull the transmission and look at the throwout bearing arm and pressure plate. It should be obvious since it is a total failure in some part. Don't buy parts until you know what you need if possible.

Les

 

I agree with your assessments, as I have had similar experiences.

I have two other cars that are stick too, besides my XF, an 88 IROC (hydralic clutch) and 85 GT Mustang (cable clutch). I have experienced slipping clutches, hydraulic failure, and broken clutch cables.

-- With the hyraulic problem, the clutch pedal becomes very soft as if it has air.
-- With the broken clutch cable, the pedal just becomes totally loose.
-- A slipping clutch is just a worn out disc, and you don't feel much problems through the clutch pedal per say, but you hear/see the engine rpm's go up and the car not move in conjunction with the sound.

I have never experienced an impossible clutch pedal to move/push? At first I thought it was the hydraulic system, but then I recalled it goes soft instead of stiff, and I did not see any leaks in the master clutch cylinder, the slave clutch cylinder is actually by the pressure plate in the bellhousing, so I can't do a visual yet?

The clutch kit's (pressure plate, disc) for the XF are f'n expensive! $650 is the cheapest I've found? Pretty expensive, considering they aren't performance anything like that!

But I like your advice, I'll likely put it on stands and take it apart before buying parts. I kinda wanted everything in hand before I start, but your reasoning changed my mind.

 

You know what? I forgot about another car I had that developed a problem. I dropped the transmission to discover that the plate on the top where the shifter was had come loose. So I tightened the screws and put it together and it was fixed without spending a penny. It's only time and effort to take it apart and put it together. It may be a simple fix or not. It sounds to me like something it binding or just broke all together. Those are the easiest to see visually. I had a noise in the transmission of an old Mercedes and I asked my Dad and he told me, Son, if you take it apart you won't see what's making the noise. If it's not broke ..... don't fix it. Yours is broken and should be obvious what is wrong when you get it apart. Check you linkage first.

Les

 

Does the peddle move at all, even a little bit?
Was there any previous hint of a problem?
Are you sure that the pedal has not jammed in some way?
The pedal operates the hydraulic cylinder, is the cylinder free to operate?
I'd look at these scenarios before dropping the transmission.

 

u say u can put it in gear and drive it but can't shift,,then the clutch and PP is ok your problem is in the shifter ,,slave,,cable,,fluid. have u tried to shift with the rpm of the engine,,, over my 397 AMX's that i have owned i have bought over 50 of them with clutch problems,, put it in 1 gear start the motor go to about 23to2500 rpm as u ease off the gas pull it out of 1 and then (between gears) give it a little gas as u push it into 2 gear,,,takes practice ,, i use to do it a lot so go for it if that works your clutch and PP are good. jim

 

@onehundred80:
-- No, the pedal does not move at all
-- No, there were no early indications of a problem prior to this occurring
-- Yes, I did check the clutch pedal and clutch master cylinder within the interior. All appears mechanically sound. Meaning, no leaks from the cylinder were visible, nothing appears loose, broken, or disconnected.
-- Not sure what you mean about the cylinder being free to operate, since it is directly connected to the clutch pedal, so it is not necessarily free? There is nothing interfering between it and the clutch pedal, if that's what you mean. By design, I would find that impossible to occur, as the master cylinder is high and flush on the firewall on the inside.
-- Yes, I have looked into and considered this before concluding it is likely a clutch pressure plate and disc related issue.

@amx1397
-- I have to other cars that are manual (as well as a few motorcycles). It is common to be able to put any of these cars (and motorcycles) in gear, without pressing the clutch pedal (or clutch lever), while it is turned off, so this behavior is not surprising.
-- Unfortunately, it is impossible to shift once the car is on, regardless of RPM.

As I have some experience with manual transmissions, both driving and repairing, I was just hoping to find other Crossfire owner's who already experienced the same behavior my Crossfire is exibitting and how they resolved the issue? This would giving me reassurance with my Crossfire, as this is the first particular occurance with this car, so I just wanted to be positive I am going down the right path?

 

2quick, could you give some details about the age and mileage of the vehicle? I am just curious as we do not have many manual trans issues reported here and I like to watch them so when it is my time for a new clutch, I will be ready.

Are you the first owner and do you drive the car aggressively?

Thanks

 

I would suspect that the master cylinder would be able to be compressed a little before contact was made with the throw bearing or the bearing would wear rapidly that is what I was getting at. With no movement I would suspect the pedal mechanism, master or slave cylinders. I would disconnect the cylinder from the pedal and check the action of the pedal and cylinder. These are certainly cheaper to repair than clutches.
To get at the slave cylinder is a lot more work.

 

@amx1397
-- I have to other cars that are manual (as well as a few motorcycles). It is common to be able to put any of these cars (and motorcycles) in gear, without pressing the clutch pedal (or clutch lever), while it is turned off, so this behavior is not surprising. I shift mine at will with or without the clutch being depressed.
-- Unfortunately, it is impossible to shift once the car is on, regardless of RPM. your answer above ,,

are you saying you can shift your other cars without using the clutch or that you never have shifted while moving without a clutch,,

I am trying to help you find the problem,, if you can shift with the motor off,without use of the clutch but not when the eng is running running is this correct. to me it is in the shifter,slave,system not the presure plate or clutch disk. can you put the car in first or second and start the motor,,

 

I'd would say that without depressing the clutch you will not be able to start the car because of the clutch interlock switch.

 

@BoilerUpXFire:
My XF is a 2004 naturally aspirated with the 6-speed manual. I am the second owner and have owned it since 2006. I have 100,000 miles on it.

I am fairly certain none of the clutch parts have been changed since it rolled off the floor sometime in 2003-2004. Hence, a need for a new pressure plate and disc is not surprising.

As far as my driving style, I consider it fairly conservative. I had to replace the stock Michelins (all around) twice already, and was not happy gutting my wallet to do it. Hence, I do not do any burnouts or anything like that. But, it is my daily driver, and I drive 60 freeway miles roundtrip on the weekdays.

So, the wear and tear is based on daily commuting, with the expected traffic in the Los Angeles area.

@onehundred80:
The XF's clutch hydraulic master/slave cylinders are integrated into the brake reservoir. This is how it gets it's fluid.

I checked that the reservoir is still full. This shows it is still drawing fluid for itself.

I went along the system in the engine bay and inside by the pedals and did not observe any leaks. Hence, there is no air in the hydraulic system either.

Under normal circumstances when everything is functioning correctly with the clutch, disconnecting the master cylinder from the pedal, would make it even harder to push by hand. So, this may actually give the incorrect impression that there is something wrong with the master cylinder, when there is not. Let alone when there is problem with binding. Not sure what this type of test would prove, in regards to the master cylinder? The only thing that can be expected is a very loose pedal. If that is very tight, then that would be the cause, which I am very doubtful it is.

None the less, I will give it a try, but I am not expecting much from this type of test.

@amx1397:
I am saying, while the cars/motorcycles are OFF, you can easily shift into any gear without using the clutch pedal. This is very normal. I have even done this in the XF as well, before it broke.

-- If it was the shifter, it would not shift at all, whether the car was on or off
-- I do not see the proper reasoning why it would be the clutch master/slave cylinder. It either will leak(have no fluid) and be too soft or it will "vapor lock" and not get fluid and be stiff. Doubt it is "vapor locked", as it is integrated and draws the fluid from the brake reservoir, the brakes are functioning fine and fluid in the reservoir looks good too.

 

The two cylinders use the brake fluid reservoir as a source for fluid they are not integrated into the brake system as such.
I was only trying to point out that the clutch has some free play before pressure is exerted on the release bearing and wondered if this free play was still evident. You say not so I then wondered if the pedal assembly was in itself jammed somehow.With those miles on the car then anything is possible I suppose and the whole clutch has seized up somehow.
I always look for the simple things first as they are often the cheapest to fix. There is no point in stripping a clutch and finding it was something entirely different.
Good luck and let us know the outcome, I have a six speed and I am interested in this problem.

 

Per "The free dictionary": integrated - definition of integrated by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.:
in·te·grate (nt-grt) - v. inte·grat·ed, inte·grat·ing, inte·grates v.tr. - To make into a whole by bringing all parts together; unify.

I indicated:
"The XF's clutch hydraulic master/slave cylinders are integrated into the brake reservoir."

As you can see, I did not say it was "integrated into the brake system", I said it was integrated into the brake reservoir. This can be visually verified.

As the "brake system" in a majority of cars solely utilize the brake reservoir. The XF suprisingly shares the brake reservoir with the hydraulic clutch system. Hence, the clutch hydraulic master/slave cylinders are integrated into the brake reservoir (not brake system).

-- There is no free play per the clutch pedal. Once I disengage the clutch pedal, I will test the clutch master cylinder by hand.

I am also hoping it will be something simple like a clutch pedal. Unfortunately, compared to other/older hydraulic clutch systems, Changing the hyraulic system on the XF will not be as easy. Reason being that the clutch release bearring is "integrated" lol with the clutch slave cylinder within the transmission. So, it needs to be dropped either way.

I will definitely update this thread once I drop the trans and visually troubleshoot it before shopping for parts.

 

[quote=2quick88]Per "The free dictionary": integrated - definition of integrated by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.:
in·te·grate (nt-grt) - v. inte·grat·ed, inte·grat·ing, inte·grates v.tr. - To make into a whole by bringing all parts together; unify.

I indicated:
"The XF's clutch hydraulic master/slave cylinders are integrated into the brake reservoir."

As you can see, I did not say it was "integrated into the brake system", I said it was integrated into the brake reservoir. This can be visually verified.
quote]
To make into a whole by bringing all parts together; unify.
Unite or unitized could be added to the meaning but they are not united, they are three separate units and the sole connection to the reservoir is a flexible hose going to the clutch master cylinder.
You have a different interpretation to me, that's all.

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