Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by Mr.Newton
Very interested!
Do you have any information about boost, reduction in compression ratio and intercooler?
Let me know:-)
Best wishes from Germany
Do you have any information about boost, reduction in compression ratio and intercooler?
Let me know:-)
Best wishes from Germany
I had a great time with a Crossfire group in Germany about a year 1.5 years ago. We had a great time at the Mercedes Museum.
This kit does not change compression. The stock compression is 10:1. No ECU work will be required. boost will be in the 7-8lb range. Testing will be done to see if we can go higer. the liniting factor will be the point that the knock sensors kick in. We know that in the 7-8 range will have no effect on timing. Hp at 8lbs should be around 349hp. This was based on calculations done by Corky. It is fairly easy to get a 50% increase with a turbo. Stock 215 plus 107 = 322hp. So hoping for 322-350hp. this get the car into SRT territory. combine this with the gearing of the n/a Crossfire and you should have very sporty ride.
I sent Corky a lot of information on the Crossfire including production numbers and facts of the various models. I told Corky that this kit needs to fit in a budget that is affordable. While our cars may be made by Mercedes, the typical Crossfire owner doesn't have Mercedes wallets. I also mentioned that a kit must make financial sense. In other words it shouldn't cost less to sell the car and buy an SRT. One thing that excited Corky was when I told him all SRT's are automatics and the six speed manual was only in the n/a. He picked up on this quick realizing that some six speed owner would love more power but never give up the stick. He see a decent market and is putting his faith in us. This is not a group buy and no deposits are required. When the kit becomes available just order one!
Please note nothing is in stone. We have our goals and after long discussions are confident enough to move forward. Cost and performance goals are our main concern. Making some ultra exotic kit that no one can afford is out of the question. This project, (like everything I do) is about bang for the buck, quality and reliability. I think we have a good team, I know the Crossfire and the community, Kleeman knows the MB engine specifics, and no one know more about boosting an engine than Corky Bell!
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Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by Joliet John
My nephew has twin turbos up under the rear of his late model Mustang. They'll suck water up off the street in the rain. With my Xfire being a daily driver, I don't know if a setup like that would work in Chicago weather.
Last edited by LantanaTX; 10-27-2011 at 07:54 AM.
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by Xalidin
I've been in contact with Corky.. He will be taking a look at the car on Monday morning around 10am. Will report back what he thinks and his initial thoughts.. Just wanted to keep you guys in the loop!
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by Xalidin
I've been in contact with Corky.. He will be taking a look at the car on Monday morning around 10am. Will report back what he thinks and his initial thoughts.. Just wanted to keep you guys in the loop!
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by Joliet John
My nephew has twin turbos up under the rear of his late model Mustang. They'll suck water up off the street in the rain. With my Xfire being a daily driver, I don't know if a setup like that would work in Chicago weather.
Senior Member
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by LantanaTX
Is he running the filter covers and shields that block water? I would think that having your filters right behind the rear tires wouldn't be ideal.
I just sent him an email and asked him to send me a pic of the setup, if he has one.
Senior Member
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by MrMoPar
Then he needs to modify, relocate, or shield them as there is no reason to put up with that. System discussed here is underhood (I think).
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
The system we are discussing here has not been determined but will be by next Monday when Corky has a car to inspect. It will be under hood if possible and rear mount if required. Corky has plenty of experience with either set up and I can assure you he will engineer and design this to not be effected by rain.
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by LantanaTX
Hello Germany!
I had a great time with a Crossfire group in Germany about a year 1.5 years ago. We had a great time at the Mercedes Museum.
This kit does not change compression. The stock compression is 10:1. No ECU work will be required. boost will be in the 7-8lb range. Testing will be done to see if we can go higer. the liniting factor will be the point that the knock sensors kick in. We know that in the 7-8 range will have no effect on timing. Hp at 8lbs should be around 349hp. This was based on calculations done by Corky. It is fairly easy to get a 50% increase with a turbo. Stock 215 plus 107 = 322hp. So hoping for 322-350hp. this get the car into SRT territory. combine this with the gearing of the n/a Crossfire and you should have very sporty ride.
I sent Corky a lot of information on the Crossfire including production numbers and facts of the various models. I told Corky that this kit needs to fit in a budget that is affordable. While our cars may be made by Mercedes, the typical Crossfire owner doesn't have Mercedes wallets. I also mentioned that a kit must make financial sense. In other words it shouldn't cost less to sell the car and buy an SRT. One thing that excited Corky was when I told him all SRT's are automatics and the six speed manual was only in the n/a. He picked up on this quick realizing that some six speed owner would love more power but never give up the stick. He see a decent market and is putting his faith in us. This is not a group buy and no deposits are required. When the kit becomes available just order one!
Please note nothing is in stone. We have our goals and after long discussions are confident enough to move forward. Cost and performance goals are our main concern. Making some ultra exotic kit that no one can afford is out of the question. This project, (like everything I do) is about bang for the buck, quality and reliability. I think we have a good team, I know the Crossfire and the community, Kleeman knows the MB engine specifics, and no one know more about boosting an engine than Corky Bell!
I had a great time with a Crossfire group in Germany about a year 1.5 years ago. We had a great time at the Mercedes Museum.
This kit does not change compression. The stock compression is 10:1. No ECU work will be required. boost will be in the 7-8lb range. Testing will be done to see if we can go higer. the liniting factor will be the point that the knock sensors kick in. We know that in the 7-8 range will have no effect on timing. Hp at 8lbs should be around 349hp. This was based on calculations done by Corky. It is fairly easy to get a 50% increase with a turbo. Stock 215 plus 107 = 322hp. So hoping for 322-350hp. this get the car into SRT territory. combine this with the gearing of the n/a Crossfire and you should have very sporty ride.
I sent Corky a lot of information on the Crossfire including production numbers and facts of the various models. I told Corky that this kit needs to fit in a budget that is affordable. While our cars may be made by Mercedes, the typical Crossfire owner doesn't have Mercedes wallets. I also mentioned that a kit must make financial sense. In other words it shouldn't cost less to sell the car and buy an SRT. One thing that excited Corky was when I told him all SRT's are automatics and the six speed manual was only in the n/a. He picked up on this quick realizing that some six speed owner would love more power but never give up the stick. He see a decent market and is putting his faith in us. This is not a group buy and no deposits are required. When the kit becomes available just order one!
Please note nothing is in stone. We have our goals and after long discussions are confident enough to move forward. Cost and performance goals are our main concern. Making some ultra exotic kit that no one can afford is out of the question. This project, (like everything I do) is about bang for the buck, quality and reliability. I think we have a good team, I know the Crossfire and the community, Kleeman knows the MB engine specifics, and no one know more about boosting an engine than Corky Bell!
Thanks for your detailed information.
8psi should work fine, 9psi also (at stock compression ratio).
I will follow this thread :-)
Keep us updated
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
First, let me state that I am not claiming to be all knowing, and in no way am I questioning the aforementioned parties credentials. They know their respective areas better than anyone (and yes I own Corky’s books). However, based on the past 6 years of first hand development and manufacturing Hemi turbo systems, and the time I have spent roughing out an idea for a system on a Crossfire (I have an 04 NA Crossfire), I have a pretty good idea of what it would take.
I know where the available room is and how difficult the exhaust routing would be (not easy by any means) if you plan to maintain any respectable ground clearance. I am NOT designing a turbo system for the Crossfire, and I have no intentions of doing so, even though I thought long and hard about it, my solution was to buy myself an SRT-6 and give the NA Crossfire to the wife.
I could have easily made a system for myself, I have the knowledge, industry sources for all the components, and all of the fabrication equipment to do anything I want. Tuning was not going to be an issue either, I can tune an NA crossfire using the same proven techniques I have been using on the new Hemi vehicles for the past 5 years, and it does not involve rewriting anything in the factory ECU.
It was simply the hassle and time that it would take that kept me from doing so. It was also related to one of the points in the posting, simply stated, the cost of another NA Crossfire ($8,000 -$10,000) (wife forbid me to touch the White 04), plus the cost of even doing the work myself (I would have had at least $4500 in cost alone plus lots of man hours), was going to be HIGHER with less vehicle value and potential performance than the 05 SRT-6 that I just purchased for $12,400.00.
I will say this, IF an out of the box, complete bolt on turbo system is developed and it includes all of the items listed below (okay I will skip the water/ meth and even the gauges in the price), and tuning is included for $3,500, I WILL buy one and install it on the 04 Crossfire whether she likes it or not.
That said, Lets take a look at the cost breakdown for a typical turbo system. (quantities are a reasonable guesstimate)
Turbo -$600 -$1200 (Master Power low end, Turbonetics or Precision high end)
BOV -$250 -$550
Wastegate -$200 -$500
Intercooler -$350 -$600
SS tubing 2”, exhaust –12’@$10 ft = $120
SS tubing 2 ¼”, charge pipe –12’@$10.50 ft = $125
SS tubing 3”, Air intake –4’@$11.50ft = $46.00
SS exhaust clamps, 2@$6.50 = $13.00
SS exhaust flex joints 2@$30 = $60
Exhaust and turbo flanges, 4@$25.00 = $100
Silicone Connectors, 6@$8.00 = $48
SS T-Bolt clamps, 16@$5.00 = $80
Air Filter, -$30
Oil inlet/outlet fittings, 4 total@$20 = $80
Oil inlet/outlet lines, braided SS, 6’@$6.00 = $36
Misc hardware, gaskets, etc., -$40
New Injectors -$200 -$400
Colder spark plugs -$60 -$120
Heat wrap, turbo blanket -$120
Gauges, AFR, Vac/Boost, EGT -$250 -$500
Estimated Low End components -$2,808.00
Estimated High End components -$4,768.00
This is only the basic components. It does not include any cost for labor involved with cutting, bending, welding, fabrication, etc. It also does not include any developmental costs.
Having designed and developed multiple turbo systems on the new Hemi vehicles over the past 6 years, I could see a low end price for an under hood system for the V6 around $4,250 -$4,500. I feel $3,500 is at least $750 low unless very low end overseas components are being used for the Turbo, BOV, Wastegate, and Intercooler.
If it is an under chassis mount system and an oil scavenging pump system is needed, then you have added another $450 into the cost unless using either an Aerocharger self contained turbo (also eliminates wastegate cost), but cost is over $2200 for the largest unit rated at approximately 330 -350 HP max output. There are others similar with higher ratings, but in the $2500 plus price range for the turbo alone.
This also does not address what the tuning cost might be either, and in my opinion, even if an intercooler is used, water/meth injection is mandatory for the longevity of a modern NA motor converted to forced induction. With the higher compression, weaker pistons, and more importantly, ring gaps not designed to deal with the increased combustion chamber temps, you either run water meth or, pull a lot of timing, and run a stupid rich AFR to prevent popped ring lands on the pistons from closed ring gaps due to heat expansion under boost.
Water/Meth injection will cost an additional $450 for a system with a progressive boost injection controller.
Then you have the question of emissions compliance. If you even hope to maintain compliance, then you are going to have to work the system to utilize the stock catalytic converters (all of them) in their original location. Simply cutting off the stock exhaust and then using a single aftermarket converter would never meet the regulations. Of course this applies to only those who care about emissions or are forced by local regulation to comply with emissions.
The other issue I have had first hand experience with is the market. Right now, the market sucks completely. Many well established companies have either closed doors or are near the point of being forced out of business. While 100 people may say “Oh that’s great, I want one when it comes out”, you are lucky if 1 out of that 100 will actually come up with the $$$ to make a purchase.
Late last year I scrapped plans to develop a V6 turbo system on the Charger, Magnum, 300, and Challenger platforms, and scrapped plans to modify the Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi turbo system to work with the V6 and 4.7 V8 engines in that vehicle. I also suspended all production, moved out of the leased building, and placed all my equipment and parts inventory into storage. Why? The market is not buying in sufficient quantity to warrant the expenditures. It was either suspend operation or risk a 100% total loss of all my investment.
You know the market has gotten really bad when the big name manufacturers are now sending out salespeople on the road to visit the little independent mom/ pop shops that only buy one or two items a quarter to try and drum up business. Previously, a shop like that could not even get someone at the manufacturer level on the phone to talk to without being sent to one of their warehouse distributors!
I certainly hope it is successful, and as I mentioned, if it is, I WILL buy one for our 04 Crossfire!
I am on the forum as an owner of an 04 NA and an 05 SRT-6 Crossfire just like everyone else. I am not here to try and sell someone anything. I love to talk modifications, and Forced Induction in particular and I have many years experience with the various Chrysler platforms.
Since most don’t know me, and to dispel any notion of a “keyboard warrior”, I have;
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi LX platform.
· 1 st Turbocharged 5.7 Hemi Charger featured at SEMA.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 6.1 Hemi SRT-8 Grand Cherokee.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi Grand Cherokee.
· Racked up over 100,000 miles of trouble free forced induction use on stock block 5.7 Hemi’s myself when everyone else was popping ring lands in them.
· One of the first stock block 5.7 Hemi 300C’s in the 12’s in full street trim.
· One of the first to take a stock block 6.1 SRT-8 Cherokee and put it in the 11’s.
· Still hold the record of the fastest stock block 5.7 Hemi Jeep Grand Cherokee.
· I own a 2007 Turbo 300C that we drive nearly every day, making over 500 crank HP and over 600 Crank ft-lb’s of torque, now with over 60,000 miles on the odometer.
· Authored a 120 page technical manual on tuning methods for OBDII compliant vehicles without rewriting the factory programming.
· Extensive research into the electronics and mechanicals in the Crossfire since early 2005.
So if I can offer any FREE assistance to anyone or answer any questions, please feel free to hit me up.
The information above should be viewed as MY OPINION. As such you may agree or disagree, and that is perfectly fine because everyone has an opinion. It is not intended to even remotely appear as dissing someone or someone else’s opinion. So please don’t take it as such as I don’t play that game!
I know where the available room is and how difficult the exhaust routing would be (not easy by any means) if you plan to maintain any respectable ground clearance. I am NOT designing a turbo system for the Crossfire, and I have no intentions of doing so, even though I thought long and hard about it, my solution was to buy myself an SRT-6 and give the NA Crossfire to the wife.
I could have easily made a system for myself, I have the knowledge, industry sources for all the components, and all of the fabrication equipment to do anything I want. Tuning was not going to be an issue either, I can tune an NA crossfire using the same proven techniques I have been using on the new Hemi vehicles for the past 5 years, and it does not involve rewriting anything in the factory ECU.
It was simply the hassle and time that it would take that kept me from doing so. It was also related to one of the points in the posting, simply stated, the cost of another NA Crossfire ($8,000 -$10,000) (wife forbid me to touch the White 04), plus the cost of even doing the work myself (I would have had at least $4500 in cost alone plus lots of man hours), was going to be HIGHER with less vehicle value and potential performance than the 05 SRT-6 that I just purchased for $12,400.00.
I will say this, IF an out of the box, complete bolt on turbo system is developed and it includes all of the items listed below (okay I will skip the water/ meth and even the gauges in the price), and tuning is included for $3,500, I WILL buy one and install it on the 04 Crossfire whether she likes it or not.
That said, Lets take a look at the cost breakdown for a typical turbo system. (quantities are a reasonable guesstimate)
Turbo -$600 -$1200 (Master Power low end, Turbonetics or Precision high end)
BOV -$250 -$550
Wastegate -$200 -$500
Intercooler -$350 -$600
SS tubing 2”, exhaust –12’@$10 ft = $120
SS tubing 2 ¼”, charge pipe –12’@$10.50 ft = $125
SS tubing 3”, Air intake –4’@$11.50ft = $46.00
SS exhaust clamps, 2@$6.50 = $13.00
SS exhaust flex joints 2@$30 = $60
Exhaust and turbo flanges, 4@$25.00 = $100
Silicone Connectors, 6@$8.00 = $48
SS T-Bolt clamps, 16@$5.00 = $80
Air Filter, -$30
Oil inlet/outlet fittings, 4 total@$20 = $80
Oil inlet/outlet lines, braided SS, 6’@$6.00 = $36
Misc hardware, gaskets, etc., -$40
New Injectors -$200 -$400
Colder spark plugs -$60 -$120
Heat wrap, turbo blanket -$120
Gauges, AFR, Vac/Boost, EGT -$250 -$500
Estimated Low End components -$2,808.00
Estimated High End components -$4,768.00
This is only the basic components. It does not include any cost for labor involved with cutting, bending, welding, fabrication, etc. It also does not include any developmental costs.
Having designed and developed multiple turbo systems on the new Hemi vehicles over the past 6 years, I could see a low end price for an under hood system for the V6 around $4,250 -$4,500. I feel $3,500 is at least $750 low unless very low end overseas components are being used for the Turbo, BOV, Wastegate, and Intercooler.
If it is an under chassis mount system and an oil scavenging pump system is needed, then you have added another $450 into the cost unless using either an Aerocharger self contained turbo (also eliminates wastegate cost), but cost is over $2200 for the largest unit rated at approximately 330 -350 HP max output. There are others similar with higher ratings, but in the $2500 plus price range for the turbo alone.
This also does not address what the tuning cost might be either, and in my opinion, even if an intercooler is used, water/meth injection is mandatory for the longevity of a modern NA motor converted to forced induction. With the higher compression, weaker pistons, and more importantly, ring gaps not designed to deal with the increased combustion chamber temps, you either run water meth or, pull a lot of timing, and run a stupid rich AFR to prevent popped ring lands on the pistons from closed ring gaps due to heat expansion under boost.
Water/Meth injection will cost an additional $450 for a system with a progressive boost injection controller.
Then you have the question of emissions compliance. If you even hope to maintain compliance, then you are going to have to work the system to utilize the stock catalytic converters (all of them) in their original location. Simply cutting off the stock exhaust and then using a single aftermarket converter would never meet the regulations. Of course this applies to only those who care about emissions or are forced by local regulation to comply with emissions.
The other issue I have had first hand experience with is the market. Right now, the market sucks completely. Many well established companies have either closed doors or are near the point of being forced out of business. While 100 people may say “Oh that’s great, I want one when it comes out”, you are lucky if 1 out of that 100 will actually come up with the $$$ to make a purchase.
Late last year I scrapped plans to develop a V6 turbo system on the Charger, Magnum, 300, and Challenger platforms, and scrapped plans to modify the Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi turbo system to work with the V6 and 4.7 V8 engines in that vehicle. I also suspended all production, moved out of the leased building, and placed all my equipment and parts inventory into storage. Why? The market is not buying in sufficient quantity to warrant the expenditures. It was either suspend operation or risk a 100% total loss of all my investment.
You know the market has gotten really bad when the big name manufacturers are now sending out salespeople on the road to visit the little independent mom/ pop shops that only buy one or two items a quarter to try and drum up business. Previously, a shop like that could not even get someone at the manufacturer level on the phone to talk to without being sent to one of their warehouse distributors!
I certainly hope it is successful, and as I mentioned, if it is, I WILL buy one for our 04 Crossfire!
I am on the forum as an owner of an 04 NA and an 05 SRT-6 Crossfire just like everyone else. I am not here to try and sell someone anything. I love to talk modifications, and Forced Induction in particular and I have many years experience with the various Chrysler platforms.
Since most don’t know me, and to dispel any notion of a “keyboard warrior”, I have;
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi LX platform.
· 1 st Turbocharged 5.7 Hemi Charger featured at SEMA.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 6.1 Hemi SRT-8 Grand Cherokee.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi Grand Cherokee.
· Racked up over 100,000 miles of trouble free forced induction use on stock block 5.7 Hemi’s myself when everyone else was popping ring lands in them.
· One of the first stock block 5.7 Hemi 300C’s in the 12’s in full street trim.
· One of the first to take a stock block 6.1 SRT-8 Cherokee and put it in the 11’s.
· Still hold the record of the fastest stock block 5.7 Hemi Jeep Grand Cherokee.
· I own a 2007 Turbo 300C that we drive nearly every day, making over 500 crank HP and over 600 Crank ft-lb’s of torque, now with over 60,000 miles on the odometer.
· Authored a 120 page technical manual on tuning methods for OBDII compliant vehicles without rewriting the factory programming.
· Extensive research into the electronics and mechanicals in the Crossfire since early 2005.
So if I can offer any FREE assistance to anyone or answer any questions, please feel free to hit me up.
The information above should be viewed as MY OPINION. As such you may agree or disagree, and that is perfectly fine because everyone has an opinion. It is not intended to even remotely appear as dissing someone or someone else’s opinion. So please don’t take it as such as I don’t play that game!
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by MrMoPar
First, let me state that I am not claiming to be all knowing, and in no way am I questioning the aforementioned parties credentials. They know their respective areas better than anyone (and yes I own Corky’s books). However, based on the past 6 years of first hand development and manufacturing Hemi turbo systems, and the time I have spent roughing out an idea for a system on a Crossfire (I have an 04 NA Crossfire), I have a pretty good idea of what it would take.
I know where the available room is and how difficult the exhaust routing would be (not easy by any means) if you plan to maintain any respectable ground clearance. I am NOT designing a turbo system for the Crossfire, and I have no intentions of doing so, even though I thought long and hard about it, my solution was to buy myself an SRT-6 and give the NA Crossfire to the wife.
I could have easily made a system for myself, I have the knowledge, industry sources for all the components, and all of the fabrication equipment to do anything I want. Tuning was not going to be an issue either, I can tune an NA crossfire using the same proven techniques I have been using on the new Hemi vehicles for the past 5 years, and it does not involve rewriting anything in the factory ECU.
It was simply the hassle and time that it would take that kept me from doing so. It was also related to one of the points in the posting, simply stated, the cost of another NA Crossfire ($8,000 -$10,000) (wife forbid me to touch the White 04), plus the cost of even doing the work myself (I would have had at least $4500 in cost alone plus lots of man hours), was going to be HIGHER with less vehicle value and potential performance than the 05 SRT-6 that I just purchased for $12,400.00.
I will say this, IF an out of the box, complete bolt on turbo system is developed and it includes all of the items listed below (okay I will skip the water/ meth and even the gauges in the price), and tuning is included for $3,500, I WILL buy one and install it on the 04 Crossfire whether she likes it or not.
That said, Lets take a look at the cost breakdown for a typical turbo system. (quantities are a reasonable guesstimate)
Turbo -$600 -$1200 (Master Power low end, Turbonetics or Precision high end)
BOV -$250 -$550
Wastegate -$200 -$500
Intercooler -$350 -$600
SS tubing 2”, exhaust –12’@$10 ft = $120
SS tubing 2 ¼”, charge pipe –12’@$10.50 ft = $125
SS tubing 3”, Air intake –4’@$11.50ft = $46.00
SS exhaust clamps, 2@$6.50 = $13.00
SS exhaust flex joints 2@$30 = $60
Exhaust and turbo flanges, 4@$25.00 = $100
Silicone Connectors, 6@$8.00 = $48
SS T-Bolt clamps, 16@$5.00 = $80
Air Filter, -$30
Oil inlet/outlet fittings, 4 total@$20 = $80
Oil inlet/outlet lines, braided SS, 6’@$6.00 = $36
Misc hardware, gaskets, etc., -$40
New Injectors -$200 -$400
Colder spark plugs -$60 -$120
Heat wrap, turbo blanket -$120
Gauges, AFR, Vac/Boost, EGT -$250 -$500
Estimated Low End components -$2,808.00
Estimated High End components -$4,768.00
This is only the basic components. It does not include any cost for labor involved with cutting, bending, welding, fabrication, etc. It also does not include any developmental costs.
Having designed and developed multiple turbo systems on the new Hemi vehicles over the past 6 years, I could see a low end price for an under hood system for the V6 around $4,250 -$4,500. I feel $3,500 is at least $750 low unless very low end overseas components are being used for the Turbo, BOV, Wastegate, and Intercooler.
If it is an under chassis mount system and an oil scavenging pump system is needed, then you have added another $450 into the cost unless using either an Aerocharger self contained turbo (also eliminates wastegate cost), but cost is over $2200 for the largest unit rated at approximately 330 -350 HP max output. There are others similar with higher ratings, but in the $2500 plus price range for the turbo alone.
This also does not address what the tuning cost might be either, and in my opinion, even if an intercooler is used, water/meth injection is mandatory for the longevity of a modern NA motor converted to forced induction. With the higher compression, weaker pistons, and more importantly, ring gaps not designed to deal with the increased combustion chamber temps, you either run water meth or, pull a lot of timing, and run a stupid rich AFR to prevent popped ring lands on the pistons from closed ring gaps due to heat expansion under boost.
Water/Meth injection will cost an additional $450 for a system with a progressive boost injection controller.
Then you have the question of emissions compliance. If you even hope to maintain compliance, then you are going to have to work the system to utilize the stock catalytic converters (all of them) in their original location. Simply cutting off the stock exhaust and then using a single aftermarket converter would never meet the regulations. Of course this applies to only those who care about emissions or are forced by local regulation to comply with emissions.
The other issue I have had first hand experience with is the market. Right now, the market sucks completely. Many well established companies have either closed doors or are near the point of being forced out of business. While 100 people may say “Oh that’s great, I want one when it comes out”, you are lucky if 1 out of that 100 will actually come up with the $$$ to make a purchase.
Late last year I scrapped plans to develop a V6 turbo system on the Charger, Magnum, 300, and Challenger platforms, and scrapped plans to modify the Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi turbo system to work with the V6 and 4.7 V8 engines in that vehicle. I also suspended all production, moved out of the leased building, and placed all my equipment and parts inventory into storage. Why? The market is not buying in sufficient quantity to warrant the expenditures. It was either suspend operation or risk a 100% total loss of all my investment.
You know the market has gotten really bad when the big name manufacturers are now sending out salespeople on the road to visit the little independent mom/ pop shops that only buy one or two items a quarter to try and drum up business. Previously, a shop like that could not even get someone at the manufacturer level on the phone to talk to without being sent to one of their warehouse distributors!
I certainly hope it is successful, and as I mentioned, if it is, I WILL buy one for our 04 Crossfire!
I am on the forum as an owner of an 04 NA and an 05 SRT-6 Crossfire just like everyone else. I am not here to try and sell someone anything. I love to talk modifications, and Forced Induction in particular and I have many years experience with the various Chrysler platforms.
Since most don’t know me, and to dispel any notion of a “keyboard warrior”, I have;
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi LX platform.
· 1 st Turbocharged 5.7 Hemi Charger featured at SEMA.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 6.1 Hemi SRT-8 Grand Cherokee.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi Grand Cherokee.
· Racked up over 100,000 miles of trouble free forced induction use on stock block 5.7 Hemi’s myself when everyone else was popping ring lands in them.
· One of the first stock block 5.7 Hemi 300C’s in the 12’s in full street trim.
· One of the first to take a stock block 6.1 SRT-8 Cherokee and put it in the 11’s.
· Still hold the record of the fastest stock block 5.7 Hemi Jeep Grand Cherokee.
· I own a 2007 Turbo 300C that we drive nearly every day, making over 500 crank HP and over 600 Crank ft-lb’s of torque, now with over 60,000 miles on the odometer.
· Authored a 120 page technical manual on tuning methods for OBDII compliant vehicles without rewriting the factory programming.
· Extensive research into the electronics and mechanicals in the Crossfire since early 2005.
So if I can offer any FREE assistance to anyone or answer any questions, please feel free to hit me up.
The information above should be viewed as MY OPINION. As such you may agree or disagree, and that is perfectly fine because everyone has an opinion. It is not intended to even remotely appear as dissing someone or someone else’s opinion. So please don’t take it as such as I don’t play that game!
I know where the available room is and how difficult the exhaust routing would be (not easy by any means) if you plan to maintain any respectable ground clearance. I am NOT designing a turbo system for the Crossfire, and I have no intentions of doing so, even though I thought long and hard about it, my solution was to buy myself an SRT-6 and give the NA Crossfire to the wife.
I could have easily made a system for myself, I have the knowledge, industry sources for all the components, and all of the fabrication equipment to do anything I want. Tuning was not going to be an issue either, I can tune an NA crossfire using the same proven techniques I have been using on the new Hemi vehicles for the past 5 years, and it does not involve rewriting anything in the factory ECU.
It was simply the hassle and time that it would take that kept me from doing so. It was also related to one of the points in the posting, simply stated, the cost of another NA Crossfire ($8,000 -$10,000) (wife forbid me to touch the White 04), plus the cost of even doing the work myself (I would have had at least $4500 in cost alone plus lots of man hours), was going to be HIGHER with less vehicle value and potential performance than the 05 SRT-6 that I just purchased for $12,400.00.
I will say this, IF an out of the box, complete bolt on turbo system is developed and it includes all of the items listed below (okay I will skip the water/ meth and even the gauges in the price), and tuning is included for $3,500, I WILL buy one and install it on the 04 Crossfire whether she likes it or not.
That said, Lets take a look at the cost breakdown for a typical turbo system. (quantities are a reasonable guesstimate)
Turbo -$600 -$1200 (Master Power low end, Turbonetics or Precision high end)
BOV -$250 -$550
Wastegate -$200 -$500
Intercooler -$350 -$600
SS tubing 2”, exhaust –12’@$10 ft = $120
SS tubing 2 ¼”, charge pipe –12’@$10.50 ft = $125
SS tubing 3”, Air intake –4’@$11.50ft = $46.00
SS exhaust clamps, 2@$6.50 = $13.00
SS exhaust flex joints 2@$30 = $60
Exhaust and turbo flanges, 4@$25.00 = $100
Silicone Connectors, 6@$8.00 = $48
SS T-Bolt clamps, 16@$5.00 = $80
Air Filter, -$30
Oil inlet/outlet fittings, 4 total@$20 = $80
Oil inlet/outlet lines, braided SS, 6’@$6.00 = $36
Misc hardware, gaskets, etc., -$40
New Injectors -$200 -$400
Colder spark plugs -$60 -$120
Heat wrap, turbo blanket -$120
Gauges, AFR, Vac/Boost, EGT -$250 -$500
Estimated Low End components -$2,808.00
Estimated High End components -$4,768.00
This is only the basic components. It does not include any cost for labor involved with cutting, bending, welding, fabrication, etc. It also does not include any developmental costs.
Having designed and developed multiple turbo systems on the new Hemi vehicles over the past 6 years, I could see a low end price for an under hood system for the V6 around $4,250 -$4,500. I feel $3,500 is at least $750 low unless very low end overseas components are being used for the Turbo, BOV, Wastegate, and Intercooler.
If it is an under chassis mount system and an oil scavenging pump system is needed, then you have added another $450 into the cost unless using either an Aerocharger self contained turbo (also eliminates wastegate cost), but cost is over $2200 for the largest unit rated at approximately 330 -350 HP max output. There are others similar with higher ratings, but in the $2500 plus price range for the turbo alone.
This also does not address what the tuning cost might be either, and in my opinion, even if an intercooler is used, water/meth injection is mandatory for the longevity of a modern NA motor converted to forced induction. With the higher compression, weaker pistons, and more importantly, ring gaps not designed to deal with the increased combustion chamber temps, you either run water meth or, pull a lot of timing, and run a stupid rich AFR to prevent popped ring lands on the pistons from closed ring gaps due to heat expansion under boost.
Water/Meth injection will cost an additional $450 for a system with a progressive boost injection controller.
Then you have the question of emissions compliance. If you even hope to maintain compliance, then you are going to have to work the system to utilize the stock catalytic converters (all of them) in their original location. Simply cutting off the stock exhaust and then using a single aftermarket converter would never meet the regulations. Of course this applies to only those who care about emissions or are forced by local regulation to comply with emissions.
The other issue I have had first hand experience with is the market. Right now, the market sucks completely. Many well established companies have either closed doors or are near the point of being forced out of business. While 100 people may say “Oh that’s great, I want one when it comes out”, you are lucky if 1 out of that 100 will actually come up with the $$$ to make a purchase.
Late last year I scrapped plans to develop a V6 turbo system on the Charger, Magnum, 300, and Challenger platforms, and scrapped plans to modify the Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi turbo system to work with the V6 and 4.7 V8 engines in that vehicle. I also suspended all production, moved out of the leased building, and placed all my equipment and parts inventory into storage. Why? The market is not buying in sufficient quantity to warrant the expenditures. It was either suspend operation or risk a 100% total loss of all my investment.
You know the market has gotten really bad when the big name manufacturers are now sending out salespeople on the road to visit the little independent mom/ pop shops that only buy one or two items a quarter to try and drum up business. Previously, a shop like that could not even get someone at the manufacturer level on the phone to talk to without being sent to one of their warehouse distributors!
I certainly hope it is successful, and as I mentioned, if it is, I WILL buy one for our 04 Crossfire!
I am on the forum as an owner of an 04 NA and an 05 SRT-6 Crossfire just like everyone else. I am not here to try and sell someone anything. I love to talk modifications, and Forced Induction in particular and I have many years experience with the various Chrysler platforms.
Since most don’t know me, and to dispel any notion of a “keyboard warrior”, I have;
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi LX platform.
· 1 st Turbocharged 5.7 Hemi Charger featured at SEMA.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 6.1 Hemi SRT-8 Grand Cherokee.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi Grand Cherokee.
· Racked up over 100,000 miles of trouble free forced induction use on stock block 5.7 Hemi’s myself when everyone else was popping ring lands in them.
· One of the first stock block 5.7 Hemi 300C’s in the 12’s in full street trim.
· One of the first to take a stock block 6.1 SRT-8 Cherokee and put it in the 11’s.
· Still hold the record of the fastest stock block 5.7 Hemi Jeep Grand Cherokee.
· I own a 2007 Turbo 300C that we drive nearly every day, making over 500 crank HP and over 600 Crank ft-lb’s of torque, now with over 60,000 miles on the odometer.
· Authored a 120 page technical manual on tuning methods for OBDII compliant vehicles without rewriting the factory programming.
· Extensive research into the electronics and mechanicals in the Crossfire since early 2005.
So if I can offer any FREE assistance to anyone or answer any questions, please feel free to hit me up.
The information above should be viewed as MY OPINION. As such you may agree or disagree, and that is perfectly fine because everyone has an opinion. It is not intended to even remotely appear as dissing someone or someone else’s opinion. So please don’t take it as such as I don’t play that game!
I'm sure between your expertise, Bell's 27+ years of experience, and Kleemann's fuel trim fixes, we can come up with a bulletproof system.
I'm excited, this is the most promising development we've seen.
I think the next six months will be good ones for the Crossfire community.
