Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
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Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,084
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From: Lantana, Republic of Texas
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
MrMoPar,
Thank you for taking the effort to provide all that info. what you came up with is similar to what I came up with, with the help of Max Hughes:
M113 Turbo Parts List PRICE S&H
Masterpower t70 turbo w/.68 A/R housing $600.00 $15.25
Turbo Werx Oil Scavenge Pump $349 $19.49
OBX 38mm Deltagate Evo Wastegate $129.00 $13.00
t4 turbo flange $16.00 $7.50
(-3) AN oil feed flange $15.99 $4.01
(-10) AN oil drain flange $12.00 $5.99
5' 3/16", 7/32" or 1/4" vacuum line $10.00
Generic RFL BOV or SSQV $40.00 $10.00
CX racing 28" intercooler and pipe kit $128.99 $30.00
90 degree 2.5-2.25" coupler $24.99 $0.00
90 degree 3.25-2.5" coupler $19.99 $6.08
18' 3 AN oil line $34.95 $36.03
18' 10 AN oil line $99.82 $5.99
3/8-10 AN fittings (3) $18.00 $0.00
10 AN swivel end (2) $16.00 $0.00
10 AN 90 degree swivel end (2) $34.00 $6.00
3" 4 bolt flange $15.99 $7.50
2.25" chargepipe 16' $40.00
aluminum welding, BOV, IC pipe $60.00
aluminiezd steel welding, turbo mounting, downpipes, wastegate mount, dumppipes (open) $220.00
3 AN 90 degree swivel (2) $22.40 $4.50
3 AN to 12mmx1.5 adapter $17.99 $7.06
1.5" pipe $20.00
bosch 440cc injectors $300.00 $7.70
AEM F/IC-8 $529.00 $15.00
SUBTOTALS $2,774.11 $201.10
TOTAL $2,975.21
The list above was created before getting involved with Brandon at Kleeman and then introduced to his good friend Corky Bell.
We are basing the tuning on proven Kleeman results using systems pioneered by Corky. If you look at my list and remove the AEM F/IC-8 the parts list is about $2,500. also some of the parts I listed are not as good as parts Corky makes himself. Another area where there can be savings is on the turbo. Corky's mainstay turbo has always been Garrett, but he also has an Asian supplier, that cuts costs down considerably. I was at first shocked and questioned him on this. His response was: before he ever sold one he fully tested one and at 20K miles tore it apart, took measurements and poked dents in everything checking hardness. He found absolutely nothing to be concerned with and and it was in perfect shape. He has since sold just under 300 of these turbos and has had 2 failures. He went on to say that he has the same failure rate with Garrett. Corky makes more parts than he sources including his own intercoolers. According to Kleeman we can run 7lbs easy and probably a bit more like 8-9lbs on our 10:1 engine without getting into the ECU to try to pull timing. Most of the Kleeman kits are put on 11:1 n/a AMG 55 engines and they operate great on 6.5 - 7lbs of boost without needing meth/water injection, or tuning. and that is on a supercharger with higher heat and a lot more parisitic loss. 8psi should put the n/a car into SRT territory. The turbo also has many advantages. Just look how easy it is to change boost on a turbo compared to the SRT set up! I understand where a lot of questions begged to be asked. I have asked Corky just about anything you can all think of. I am now at the point of just trusting him and answer his questions that are Crossfire specific. Corky really is a great guy, but be warned a simple question will get you a VERY detailed response and you will feel like you are talking to Einstein. A lot of what he says is over most people's and my head.
On an off subject note. I was talking today to Corky and he told me he owns two Mercedes. One is a 1951 170S. He said instead of restoring it he thinks he will turn it into a Street Rod! He asked me if I have ever seen a Mercedes Street Rod? No I haven't. One of his considerations is putting the Crossfire/MB V6 drive line into it. Sound like our type of guy!
Thank you for taking the effort to provide all that info. what you came up with is similar to what I came up with, with the help of Max Hughes:
M113 Turbo Parts List PRICE S&H
Masterpower t70 turbo w/.68 A/R housing $600.00 $15.25
Turbo Werx Oil Scavenge Pump $349 $19.49
OBX 38mm Deltagate Evo Wastegate $129.00 $13.00
t4 turbo flange $16.00 $7.50
(-3) AN oil feed flange $15.99 $4.01
(-10) AN oil drain flange $12.00 $5.99
5' 3/16", 7/32" or 1/4" vacuum line $10.00
Generic RFL BOV or SSQV $40.00 $10.00
CX racing 28" intercooler and pipe kit $128.99 $30.00
90 degree 2.5-2.25" coupler $24.99 $0.00
90 degree 3.25-2.5" coupler $19.99 $6.08
18' 3 AN oil line $34.95 $36.03
18' 10 AN oil line $99.82 $5.99
3/8-10 AN fittings (3) $18.00 $0.00
10 AN swivel end (2) $16.00 $0.00
10 AN 90 degree swivel end (2) $34.00 $6.00
3" 4 bolt flange $15.99 $7.50
2.25" chargepipe 16' $40.00
aluminum welding, BOV, IC pipe $60.00
aluminiezd steel welding, turbo mounting, downpipes, wastegate mount, dumppipes (open) $220.00
3 AN 90 degree swivel (2) $22.40 $4.50
3 AN to 12mmx1.5 adapter $17.99 $7.06
1.5" pipe $20.00
bosch 440cc injectors $300.00 $7.70
AEM F/IC-8 $529.00 $15.00
SUBTOTALS $2,774.11 $201.10
TOTAL $2,975.21
The list above was created before getting involved with Brandon at Kleeman and then introduced to his good friend Corky Bell.
We are basing the tuning on proven Kleeman results using systems pioneered by Corky. If you look at my list and remove the AEM F/IC-8 the parts list is about $2,500. also some of the parts I listed are not as good as parts Corky makes himself. Another area where there can be savings is on the turbo. Corky's mainstay turbo has always been Garrett, but he also has an Asian supplier, that cuts costs down considerably. I was at first shocked and questioned him on this. His response was: before he ever sold one he fully tested one and at 20K miles tore it apart, took measurements and poked dents in everything checking hardness. He found absolutely nothing to be concerned with and and it was in perfect shape. He has since sold just under 300 of these turbos and has had 2 failures. He went on to say that he has the same failure rate with Garrett. Corky makes more parts than he sources including his own intercoolers. According to Kleeman we can run 7lbs easy and probably a bit more like 8-9lbs on our 10:1 engine without getting into the ECU to try to pull timing. Most of the Kleeman kits are put on 11:1 n/a AMG 55 engines and they operate great on 6.5 - 7lbs of boost without needing meth/water injection, or tuning. and that is on a supercharger with higher heat and a lot more parisitic loss. 8psi should put the n/a car into SRT territory. The turbo also has many advantages. Just look how easy it is to change boost on a turbo compared to the SRT set up! I understand where a lot of questions begged to be asked. I have asked Corky just about anything you can all think of. I am now at the point of just trusting him and answer his questions that are Crossfire specific. Corky really is a great guy, but be warned a simple question will get you a VERY detailed response and you will feel like you are talking to Einstein. A lot of what he says is over most people's and my head.
On an off subject note. I was talking today to Corky and he told me he owns two Mercedes. One is a 1951 170S. He said instead of restoring it he thinks he will turn it into a Street Rod! He asked me if I have ever seen a Mercedes Street Rod? No I haven't. One of his considerations is putting the Crossfire/MB V6 drive line into it. Sound like our type of guy!
Thread Starter
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Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,084
Likes: 8
From: Lantana, Republic of Texas
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by killerkanadian
Cut out the front cats and there could be more room down there.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,285
Likes: 5
From: Carmel, In.
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by turbomar
Yeah but that's not an option if you have to pass an Etest every 2 years
Thread Starter
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Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,084
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From: Lantana, Republic of Texas
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by BoilerUpXFire
I have spoken with several members who have 1 set of cats deleted with no problems passing emissions testing....
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,349
Likes: 17
From: Murfreesboro, TN
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
I like the idea of replacing the leading cats MUCH better than the idea of the rear-mount...
Like you, Bob, I can't wait for Monday!! (never thought I'd say that!)
Like you, Bob, I can't wait for Monday!! (never thought I'd say that!)
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 521
Likes: 2
From: snohomish WA.
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
This is Fantastic News! I have not been this excited about My Cross since I Bought it! I certainly Hope Corky can find the ways and Means to produce this Turbo Kit, Cuz I am so In. I don't have to worry about emissions Here in Washington as it is only aplicable in densly Populated Counties. I have 2 Properties in the Mountains that I register My cars at.
Thanks for all the hard work Lantana
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 14,607
Likes: 39
From: IN
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Bob, good luck buddy...sounds like this will be a great set up.. Will give us all something to read about as winter sets in here in the midwest...
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Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Lantana, Republic of Texas
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by JHM2K
I like the idea of replacing the leading cats MUCH better than the idea of the rear-mount...
Like you, Bob, I can't wait for Monday!! (never thought I'd say that!)
Like you, Bob, I can't wait for Monday!! (never thought I'd say that!)
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by MrMoPar
First, let me state that I am not claiming to be all knowing, and in no way am I questioning the aforementioned parties credentials. They know their respective areas better than anyone (and yes I own Corky’s books). However, based on the past 6 years of first hand development and manufacturing Hemi turbo systems, and the time I have spent roughing out an idea for a system on a Crossfire (I have an 04 NA Crossfire), I have a pretty good idea of what it would take.
I know where the available room is and how difficult the exhaust routing would be (not easy by any means) if you plan to maintain any respectable ground clearance. I am NOT designing a turbo system for the Crossfire, and I have no intentions of doing so, even though I thought long and hard about it, my solution was to buy myself an SRT-6 and give the NA Crossfire to the wife.
I could have easily made a system for myself, I have the knowledge, industry sources for all the components, and all of the fabrication equipment to do anything I want. Tuning was not going to be an issue either, I can tune an NA crossfire using the same proven techniques I have been using on the new Hemi vehicles for the past 5 years, and it does not involve rewriting anything in the factory ECU.
It was simply the hassle and time that it would take that kept me from doing so. It was also related to one of the points in the posting, simply stated, the cost of another NA Crossfire ($8,000 -$10,000) (wife forbid me to touch the White 04), plus the cost of even doing the work myself (I would have had at least $4500 in cost alone plus lots of man hours), was going to be HIGHER with less vehicle value and potential performance than the 05 SRT-6 that I just purchased for $12,400.00.
I will say this, IF an out of the box, complete bolt on turbo system is developed and it includes all of the items listed below (okay I will skip the water/ meth and even the gauges in the price), and tuning is included for $3,500, I WILL buy one and install it on the 04 Crossfire whether she likes it or not.
That said, Lets take a look at the cost breakdown for a typical turbo system. (quantities are a reasonable guesstimate)
Turbo -$600 -$1200 (Master Power low end, Turbonetics or Precision high end)
BOV -$250 -$550
Wastegate -$200 -$500
Intercooler -$350 -$600
SS tubing 2”, exhaust –12’@$10 ft = $120
SS tubing 2 ¼”, charge pipe –12’@$10.50 ft = $125
SS tubing 3”, Air intake –4’@$11.50ft = $46.00
SS exhaust clamps, 2@$6.50 = $13.00
SS exhaust flex joints 2@$30 = $60
Exhaust and turbo flanges, 4@$25.00 = $100
Silicone Connectors, 6@$8.00 = $48
SS T-Bolt clamps, 16@$5.00 = $80
Air Filter, -$30
Oil inlet/outlet fittings, 4 total@$20 = $80
Oil inlet/outlet lines, braided SS, 6’@$6.00 = $36
Misc hardware, gaskets, etc., -$40
New Injectors -$200 -$400
Colder spark plugs -$60 -$120
Heat wrap, turbo blanket -$120
Gauges, AFR, Vac/Boost, EGT -$250 -$500
Estimated Low End components -$2,808.00
Estimated High End components -$4,768.00
This is only the basic components. It does not include any cost for labor involved with cutting, bending, welding, fabrication, etc. It also does not include any developmental costs.
Having designed and developed multiple turbo systems on the new Hemi vehicles over the past 6 years, I could see a low end price for an under hood system for the V6 around $4,250 -$4,500. I feel $3,500 is at least $750 low unless very low end overseas components are being used for the Turbo, BOV, Wastegate, and Intercooler.
If it is an under chassis mount system and an oil scavenging pump system is needed, then you have added another $450 into the cost unless using either an Aerocharger self contained turbo (also eliminates wastegate cost), but cost is over $2200 for the largest unit rated at approximately 330 -350 HP max output. There are others similar with higher ratings, but in the $2500 plus price range for the turbo alone.
This also does not address what the tuning cost might be either, and in my opinion, even if an intercooler is used, water/meth injection is mandatory for the longevity of a modern NA motor converted to forced induction. With the higher compression, weaker pistons, and more importantly, ring gaps not designed to deal with the increased combustion chamber temps, you either run water meth or, pull a lot of timing, and run a stupid rich AFR to prevent popped ring lands on the pistons from closed ring gaps due to heat expansion under boost.
Water/Meth injection will cost an additional $450 for a system with a progressive boost injection controller.
Then you have the question of emissions compliance. If you even hope to maintain compliance, then you are going to have to work the system to utilize the stock catalytic converters (all of them) in their original location. Simply cutting off the stock exhaust and then using a single aftermarket converter would never meet the regulations. Of course this applies to only those who care about emissions or are forced by local regulation to comply with emissions.
The other issue I have had first hand experience with is the market. Right now, the market sucks completely. Many well established companies have either closed doors or are near the point of being forced out of business. While 100 people may say “Oh that’s great, I want one when it comes out”, you are lucky if 1 out of that 100 will actually come up with the $$$ to make a purchase.
Late last year I scrapped plans to develop a V6 turbo system on the Charger, Magnum, 300, and Challenger platforms, and scrapped plans to modify the Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi turbo system to work with the V6 and 4.7 V8 engines in that vehicle. I also suspended all production, moved out of the leased building, and placed all my equipment and parts inventory into storage. Why? The market is not buying in sufficient quantity to warrant the expenditures. It was either suspend operation or risk a 100% total loss of all my investment.
You know the market has gotten really bad when the big name manufacturers are now sending out salespeople on the road to visit the little independent mom/ pop shops that only buy one or two items a quarter to try and drum up business. Previously, a shop like that could not even get someone at the manufacturer level on the phone to talk to without being sent to one of their warehouse distributors!
I certainly hope it is successful, and as I mentioned, if it is, I WILL buy one for our 04 Crossfire!
I am on the forum as an owner of an 04 NA and an 05 SRT-6 Crossfire just like everyone else. I am not here to try and sell someone anything. I love to talk modifications, and Forced Induction in particular and I have many years experience with the various Chrysler platforms.
Since most don’t know me, and to dispel any notion of a “keyboard warrior”, I have;
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi LX platform.
· 1 st Turbocharged 5.7 Hemi Charger featured at SEMA.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 6.1 Hemi SRT-8 Grand Cherokee.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi Grand Cherokee.
· Racked up over 100,000 miles of trouble free forced induction use on stock block 5.7 Hemi’s myself when everyone else was popping ring lands in them.
· One of the first stock block 5.7 Hemi 300C’s in the 12’s in full street trim.
· One of the first to take a stock block 6.1 SRT-8 Cherokee and put it in the 11’s.
· Still hold the record of the fastest stock block 5.7 Hemi Jeep Grand Cherokee.
· I own a 2007 Turbo 300C that we drive nearly every day, making over 500 crank HP and over 600 Crank ft-lb’s of torque, now with over 60,000 miles on the odometer.
· Authored a 120 page technical manual on tuning methods for OBDII compliant vehicles without rewriting the factory programming.
· Extensive research into the electronics and mechanicals in the Crossfire since early 2005.
So if I can offer any FREE assistance to anyone or answer any questions, please feel free to hit me up.
The information above should be viewed as MY OPINION. As such you may agree or disagree, and that is perfectly fine because everyone has an opinion. It is not intended to even remotely appear as dissing someone or someone else’s opinion. So please don’t take it as such as I don’t play that game!
I know where the available room is and how difficult the exhaust routing would be (not easy by any means) if you plan to maintain any respectable ground clearance. I am NOT designing a turbo system for the Crossfire, and I have no intentions of doing so, even though I thought long and hard about it, my solution was to buy myself an SRT-6 and give the NA Crossfire to the wife.
I could have easily made a system for myself, I have the knowledge, industry sources for all the components, and all of the fabrication equipment to do anything I want. Tuning was not going to be an issue either, I can tune an NA crossfire using the same proven techniques I have been using on the new Hemi vehicles for the past 5 years, and it does not involve rewriting anything in the factory ECU.
It was simply the hassle and time that it would take that kept me from doing so. It was also related to one of the points in the posting, simply stated, the cost of another NA Crossfire ($8,000 -$10,000) (wife forbid me to touch the White 04), plus the cost of even doing the work myself (I would have had at least $4500 in cost alone plus lots of man hours), was going to be HIGHER with less vehicle value and potential performance than the 05 SRT-6 that I just purchased for $12,400.00.
I will say this, IF an out of the box, complete bolt on turbo system is developed and it includes all of the items listed below (okay I will skip the water/ meth and even the gauges in the price), and tuning is included for $3,500, I WILL buy one and install it on the 04 Crossfire whether she likes it or not.
That said, Lets take a look at the cost breakdown for a typical turbo system. (quantities are a reasonable guesstimate)
Turbo -$600 -$1200 (Master Power low end, Turbonetics or Precision high end)
BOV -$250 -$550
Wastegate -$200 -$500
Intercooler -$350 -$600
SS tubing 2”, exhaust –12’@$10 ft = $120
SS tubing 2 ¼”, charge pipe –12’@$10.50 ft = $125
SS tubing 3”, Air intake –4’@$11.50ft = $46.00
SS exhaust clamps, 2@$6.50 = $13.00
SS exhaust flex joints 2@$30 = $60
Exhaust and turbo flanges, 4@$25.00 = $100
Silicone Connectors, 6@$8.00 = $48
SS T-Bolt clamps, 16@$5.00 = $80
Air Filter, -$30
Oil inlet/outlet fittings, 4 total@$20 = $80
Oil inlet/outlet lines, braided SS, 6’@$6.00 = $36
Misc hardware, gaskets, etc., -$40
New Injectors -$200 -$400
Colder spark plugs -$60 -$120
Heat wrap, turbo blanket -$120
Gauges, AFR, Vac/Boost, EGT -$250 -$500
Estimated Low End components -$2,808.00
Estimated High End components -$4,768.00
This is only the basic components. It does not include any cost for labor involved with cutting, bending, welding, fabrication, etc. It also does not include any developmental costs.
Having designed and developed multiple turbo systems on the new Hemi vehicles over the past 6 years, I could see a low end price for an under hood system for the V6 around $4,250 -$4,500. I feel $3,500 is at least $750 low unless very low end overseas components are being used for the Turbo, BOV, Wastegate, and Intercooler.
If it is an under chassis mount system and an oil scavenging pump system is needed, then you have added another $450 into the cost unless using either an Aerocharger self contained turbo (also eliminates wastegate cost), but cost is over $2200 for the largest unit rated at approximately 330 -350 HP max output. There are others similar with higher ratings, but in the $2500 plus price range for the turbo alone.
This also does not address what the tuning cost might be either, and in my opinion, even if an intercooler is used, water/meth injection is mandatory for the longevity of a modern NA motor converted to forced induction. With the higher compression, weaker pistons, and more importantly, ring gaps not designed to deal with the increased combustion chamber temps, you either run water meth or, pull a lot of timing, and run a stupid rich AFR to prevent popped ring lands on the pistons from closed ring gaps due to heat expansion under boost.
Water/Meth injection will cost an additional $450 for a system with a progressive boost injection controller.
Then you have the question of emissions compliance. If you even hope to maintain compliance, then you are going to have to work the system to utilize the stock catalytic converters (all of them) in their original location. Simply cutting off the stock exhaust and then using a single aftermarket converter would never meet the regulations. Of course this applies to only those who care about emissions or are forced by local regulation to comply with emissions.
The other issue I have had first hand experience with is the market. Right now, the market sucks completely. Many well established companies have either closed doors or are near the point of being forced out of business. While 100 people may say “Oh that’s great, I want one when it comes out”, you are lucky if 1 out of that 100 will actually come up with the $$$ to make a purchase.
Late last year I scrapped plans to develop a V6 turbo system on the Charger, Magnum, 300, and Challenger platforms, and scrapped plans to modify the Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi turbo system to work with the V6 and 4.7 V8 engines in that vehicle. I also suspended all production, moved out of the leased building, and placed all my equipment and parts inventory into storage. Why? The market is not buying in sufficient quantity to warrant the expenditures. It was either suspend operation or risk a 100% total loss of all my investment.
You know the market has gotten really bad when the big name manufacturers are now sending out salespeople on the road to visit the little independent mom/ pop shops that only buy one or two items a quarter to try and drum up business. Previously, a shop like that could not even get someone at the manufacturer level on the phone to talk to without being sent to one of their warehouse distributors!
I certainly hope it is successful, and as I mentioned, if it is, I WILL buy one for our 04 Crossfire!
I am on the forum as an owner of an 04 NA and an 05 SRT-6 Crossfire just like everyone else. I am not here to try and sell someone anything. I love to talk modifications, and Forced Induction in particular and I have many years experience with the various Chrysler platforms.
Since most don’t know me, and to dispel any notion of a “keyboard warrior”, I have;
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi LX platform.
· 1 st Turbocharged 5.7 Hemi Charger featured at SEMA.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 6.1 Hemi SRT-8 Grand Cherokee.
· Designed and produced the first production turbo system for the 05-10, 5.7 Hemi Grand Cherokee.
· Racked up over 100,000 miles of trouble free forced induction use on stock block 5.7 Hemi’s myself when everyone else was popping ring lands in them.
· One of the first stock block 5.7 Hemi 300C’s in the 12’s in full street trim.
· One of the first to take a stock block 6.1 SRT-8 Cherokee and put it in the 11’s.
· Still hold the record of the fastest stock block 5.7 Hemi Jeep Grand Cherokee.
· I own a 2007 Turbo 300C that we drive nearly every day, making over 500 crank HP and over 600 Crank ft-lb’s of torque, now with over 60,000 miles on the odometer.
· Authored a 120 page technical manual on tuning methods for OBDII compliant vehicles without rewriting the factory programming.
· Extensive research into the electronics and mechanicals in the Crossfire since early 2005.
So if I can offer any FREE assistance to anyone or answer any questions, please feel free to hit me up.
The information above should be viewed as MY OPINION. As such you may agree or disagree, and that is perfectly fine because everyone has an opinion. It is not intended to even remotely appear as dissing someone or someone else’s opinion. So please don’t take it as such as I don’t play that game!
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 914
Likes: 3
From: Barrhaven, Ontario
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Here's a great start for parts!
UNIVERSAL T3/T40E .63 TURBO/TURBOCHARGER KIT + FEED | eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TurboWerx-Ba...item231573b744
Not recommended for everyone
UNIVERSAL T3/T40E .63 TURBO/TURBOCHARGER KIT + FEED | eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TurboWerx-Ba...item231573b744
Not recommended for everyone
Last edited by turbomar; Oct 27, 2011 at 06:52 PM.
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 579
Likes: 3
From: NW Ohio
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
You can save by using certain imports, you just need to make sure who and what your dealing with. Masterpower makes a great unit at a very good price point. On the 3.2 V6 I think a T70 will be too large. I have used them on stock 5.7 Hemi's with great success in the 7-12 psi range. I am afraid it would be laggy on a V6.
My first choice would be a single turbo mounted on the passenger side rear of engine, second choice on driver side front and relocate components. Stock exhaust rises from the manifold and then turns down to the inside. A crossover pipe could bolt to stock flanges and feed the single turbo and exhaust down where the stock exhaust was.
The cats are the issue. To be legit, split the single down pipe to feed the stock exhaust, and then remove the Y behind the post cats to run dual exhaust out the back to free up the exhaust. This leaves both sets of OEM cats in place.
Most OEM cats flow quite well, to avoid potential upstream/downstream O2 sensor mismatch and associated codes. I would run the two main upstream OEM cats minimum. I doubt there would be any significant gain by eliminating the secondary cats.
If not concerned with emissions, one can run large single exhaust with a single cat but may face O2 sensor issues.
Adding headers might gain some HP, but would add significant expense.
I have looked extensively underneath for a location for chassis mounting a system. best location is drivers side near the rear half shaft. The big issue is routing the charge pipe forward. For max clearance, I would choose oval tubing under the chassis. It will be a big challenge getting the charge pipe into the engine bay. Possibly where the drivers side exhaust came down from the stock manifold.
I am not familiar with the Kleeman tuning, but I do know that on the modern engines to meet emissions, the manufacturers run shallow upper ring lands and tight ring gaps. both create a bad situation if increased combustion chamber temps are left unchecked. Many Hemi's popped the upper ring lands from inadequate tuning, it was not from detonation but unchecked cylinder heating which caused the narrow ring gaps to close and then the rings were forced to expand up popping off part of the ring land.
Under 7 psi of boost on the Hemi, with water/meth, EGT's are within 100 degrees of maximum stock temps around 1200. If I turn the water/meth off, immediately the temps go to over 1550 degrees, hot enough to cause ring land damage in short order. Those who don't run water/meth, pull a lot more timing then I do and run fatter AFR's to provide some cylinder cooling. I make far more power at 11.8 AFR than I do at 10.6 to 10.8 AFR.
Water/ meth will be the first thing that goes on my SRT-6 when I get her home.
My first choice would be a single turbo mounted on the passenger side rear of engine, second choice on driver side front and relocate components. Stock exhaust rises from the manifold and then turns down to the inside. A crossover pipe could bolt to stock flanges and feed the single turbo and exhaust down where the stock exhaust was.
The cats are the issue. To be legit, split the single down pipe to feed the stock exhaust, and then remove the Y behind the post cats to run dual exhaust out the back to free up the exhaust. This leaves both sets of OEM cats in place.
Most OEM cats flow quite well, to avoid potential upstream/downstream O2 sensor mismatch and associated codes. I would run the two main upstream OEM cats minimum. I doubt there would be any significant gain by eliminating the secondary cats.
If not concerned with emissions, one can run large single exhaust with a single cat but may face O2 sensor issues.
Adding headers might gain some HP, but would add significant expense.
I have looked extensively underneath for a location for chassis mounting a system. best location is drivers side near the rear half shaft. The big issue is routing the charge pipe forward. For max clearance, I would choose oval tubing under the chassis. It will be a big challenge getting the charge pipe into the engine bay. Possibly where the drivers side exhaust came down from the stock manifold.
I am not familiar with the Kleeman tuning, but I do know that on the modern engines to meet emissions, the manufacturers run shallow upper ring lands and tight ring gaps. both create a bad situation if increased combustion chamber temps are left unchecked. Many Hemi's popped the upper ring lands from inadequate tuning, it was not from detonation but unchecked cylinder heating which caused the narrow ring gaps to close and then the rings were forced to expand up popping off part of the ring land.
Under 7 psi of boost on the Hemi, with water/meth, EGT's are within 100 degrees of maximum stock temps around 1200. If I turn the water/meth off, immediately the temps go to over 1550 degrees, hot enough to cause ring land damage in short order. Those who don't run water/meth, pull a lot more timing then I do and run fatter AFR's to provide some cylinder cooling. I make far more power at 11.8 AFR than I do at 10.6 to 10.8 AFR.
Water/ meth will be the first thing that goes on my SRT-6 when I get her home.
Last edited by MrMoPar; Oct 27, 2011 at 09:29 PM.
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From: Elburn, IL
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by Bill00
I wonder if a setup like that SRT6 with the turbo in the intake valley would work? Of course it would cost more to fab the intake.
I hope Corky can turn out a kit for the Crossfire, that would be awesome. I can say from experience that there is no room for anything larger than a 16g or similar sized turbo next to, or under current position of the exhaust manifolds. If you want a large single turbo, in the valley or rear mount are the only options with out re-constructing the wheel.
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From: Lantana, Republic of Texas
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
There are channels on each side under the car. I didn't trace trace the lines but the ones in the right side channel look like brake lines. If they could be relocated, oval pipe in the channel might cure the ground clearance issue. Getting the charge into the engine compartment is the next problem. With a V8 in my car the only way is to run the pipe under the front A arm near its pivot point then under the radiator and up behind the grille and into a intercooler. The charge pipe would then run into the engine compartment through the stock opening on the passenger side and look like a single Needswings intake to the throttle body. If the brake lines were just moved to the side out of the channel it would probably be OK as long as you don't damage them by a scrape. They possibley could be run under the rocker panels to allow that channel to be used by the charge pipe.
I agree that the T70 would be too big and lazy for the V6. The recipe I posted was for my V8 powered car. I was considering this turbo or a 67mm turbo with a .68 A/R for my V8 in a rear mount setup. BTW, Master Power is out of business. Some new units are still floating around on Ebay. Don't forget guys that I am getting this kit too! While I am shooting for power close to the SRT for the V6, you should be able to guess what my goals are for my car
I agree that the T70 would be too big and lazy for the V6. The recipe I posted was for my V8 powered car. I was considering this turbo or a 67mm turbo with a .68 A/R for my V8 in a rear mount setup. BTW, Master Power is out of business. Some new units are still floating around on Ebay. Don't forget guys that I am getting this kit too! While I am shooting for power close to the SRT for the V6, you should be able to guess what my goals are for my car
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Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
On the note of Downstream 02 Sensors. Eurocharged has figured out in their tunes to make them irrelevant and not read a check engine light.
As far as i am concerned, keep the upsteam O2 sensors and delete the downsteam.
As far as i am concerned, keep the upsteam O2 sensors and delete the downsteam.
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From: Lantana, Republic of Texas
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by ImportLabSRT
Wow, that is an old picture... a lot of improvements since then.
I hope Corky can turn out a kit for the Crossfire, that would be awesome. I can say from experience that there is no room for anything larger than a 16g or similar sized turbo next to, or under current position of the exhaust manifolds. If you want a large single turbo, in the valley or rear mount are the only options with out re-constructing the wheel.
I hope Corky can turn out a kit for the Crossfire, that would be awesome. I can say from experience that there is no room for anything larger than a 16g or similar sized turbo next to, or under current position of the exhaust manifolds. If you want a large single turbo, in the valley or rear mount are the only options with out re-constructing the wheel.
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From: Murfreesboro, TN
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
A question from a mere brainstormer, and not an expert... BUT:
Why can't we replicate the design of the biturbo V12 in the SL/CL cars, but just do it with half the cylinders and much smaller turbos? Is a single turbo really the best and only method?
Seems to me that you could use two small snail turbos (like a K03) behind each manifold... this eliminates the charge pipe issue, the 90 feet of piping, and the need to relocate brake lines. What you spend on another tiny turbo (much cheaper than larger ones, right?) you end up saving by not having to re-engineer the whole car.
Simply route a custom fab'd charge pipe into a surge tank like the kompressor motors use, only mount them backwards. Less piping, less lag, less reverse-engineering of the car.
Why can't we replicate the design of the biturbo V12 in the SL/CL cars, but just do it with half the cylinders and much smaller turbos? Is a single turbo really the best and only method?
Seems to me that you could use two small snail turbos (like a K03) behind each manifold... this eliminates the charge pipe issue, the 90 feet of piping, and the need to relocate brake lines. What you spend on another tiny turbo (much cheaper than larger ones, right?) you end up saving by not having to re-engineer the whole car.
Simply route a custom fab'd charge pipe into a surge tank like the kompressor motors use, only mount them backwards. Less piping, less lag, less reverse-engineering of the car.
And, I can't lie -- having a V6 BITURBO badge on the side of the car would be a RIOT!!! 
Smaller turbos = faster spooling, more space, smaller charge piping (easier bends)... I'm seeing lots of advantages.
Tune them down to where they only create 5psi each, for a combined 10 psi, and we have a safe kit that solves the charge-pipe/ground-clearance problem. Lower psi per unit equals cooler temps as well, right?
Or am I being moronic? I have way more imagination than expertise on turbos.
Smaller turbos = faster spooling, more space, smaller charge piping (easier bends)... I'm seeing lots of advantages.
Tune them down to where they only create 5psi each, for a combined 10 psi, and we have a safe kit that solves the charge-pipe/ground-clearance problem. Lower psi per unit equals cooler temps as well, right?
Or am I being moronic? I have way more imagination than expertise on turbos.
Last edited by JHM2K; Oct 27, 2011 at 09:38 PM.
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From: Lantana, Republic of Texas
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by killerkanadian
On the note of Downstream 02 Sensors. Eurocharged has figured out in their tunes to make them irrelevant and not read a check engine light.
As far as i am concerned, keep the upsteam O2 sensors and delete the downsteam.
As far as i am concerned, keep the upsteam O2 sensors and delete the downsteam.
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From: murfreesboro,tn
Re: Turbo Project about to begin but decision needed
Originally Posted by killerkanadian
On the note of Downstream 02 Sensors. Eurocharged has figured out in their tunes to make them irrelevant and not read a check engine light.
As far as i am concerned, keep the upsteam O2 sensors and delete the downsteam.
As far as i am concerned, keep the upsteam O2 sensors and delete the downsteam.