Keep in mind that our 'reality' is limited to the five senses. Who knows what else we are missing?

I'll do the best I can with what I have.

 

God, and faith…

Something I notice a lot is that “people of faith” feel the need to scientifically explain to others how their faith makes sense. We (I say we, because in the past I have done the exact same thing…) try to offer up scientific proof, timelines, DNA tests and carbon-14 snippets of data to prove to atheists and self-proclaimed non believers that our faith is legit. It is often said that atheists/non-believers know more about our Bible than the Christians do, because atheists are so concerned with disputing the facts, they feel they need to learn as much as possible to be able to prove as little as possible.

And, in most cases, the banter based on “facts” turns into a shouting match and both parties end up losing. The man of faith normally gets frustrated and loses his cool, and the non-believer continues not believing. And while he has seemingly won the argument, he is missing out on so much more… the gifts of God that he is willingly missing out on. My faith, my Savior, my Jesus, is real. You can absolutely come up with formulas, equations, timelines and hypothetical situations to deny His existence if that is what you feel inclined to do. Man-made science and man-made mathematics can prove MAN right 100% of the time. Too bad man itself is not perfect…

So… instead of me trying to cite “Mythbusters” episodes and giving you “expert analysis” on several topics, to PROVE my Lord and Savior is real… let me just shoot straight with all of you guys/gals, candidly, from my point of view. Kneecap to kneecap, as if we were enjoying a Starbucks together.

When I accepted Christ in my life, I was nine. Nine years old. I was ignorant to life’s hardships, but I had faith. My Bible made sense, my parents were believers, and I saw the joy they had in church. I saw the joy they experienced in Christ. And I wanted to be part of the action. I proudly made the walk up the aisle and remember that as the greatest day in my young life. My parents had never been more proud, the planets were aligned and suddenly I was a “good kid”… receiving “attaboys” from my elders and nearly all of my relatives. The acceptance was there, but the life adjustment was not. I went on playing with G.I-Joes, and sneaking an answer or two from classmates when the science test was simply too hard. Christ was real to me and I loved Him, but I didn’t “need” Him… or so I thought.

Fast-forward to my high-school years. Same patterns, same child. G.I-Joes were replaced with a Playstation, and eventually vehicles. I went from studying tests to studying girls. I did well in school, but nothing spectacular stood out. I barely took it seriously… In fact, I was bored with it. I left with an Honors Diploma but still saw school as an inconvenience, not a privilege. Same goes for my relationship with Christ. I prayed occasionally, but not often. Only when I was in a pickle and needed a quick “out”. I saw my relationship with Christ as a convenience, not a gift. Shame on me…

College… oh boy. Not sure where to even begin. I quickly learned that the same amount of effort I put forth in high school was NOT going to cut it. College brought the end of my first engagement in 2005… she was easily distracted by other guys and eventually that led to us splitting… and because I had put her on such a pedestal, when that relationship failed, it nearly brought about my demise. I’m not blaming her, because it was my choice to react the way I did and my choice to choose every carnal pleasure under the sun, instead of looking to my Lord and Savior for deliverance. I went through a season of bartending, women, partying, rebellion in general. I was the “cool guy” that you could count on to throw a good party, but the “true me” was deeply tucked away. The “true me” being a Christ follower. I gained a lot of knowledge about life (through hard knocks) and I certainly feel wiser looking back at the experiences I had. However, I was a terrible witness and was on many counts known simply as the funny, buff bartender guy, not a wise man after God’s own heart. Again, shame on me.

About a year ago, I gave up. I yielded. MY choices for MY life were no longer sufficient, they were no longer working. I had white-knuckled my life and my choices in drinking, women, and some friends were no longer fulfilling. My life was headed in a direction I wasn’t comfortable with, and deep in my heart I knew what I had to do.

 

(continued from above)...

So… I prayed. I prayed for deliverance, wisdom, and a chance to know Him better. To put it bluntly, I re-submitted my life to Jesus.

Since then… I cannot express to you guys what a wonderful life I’ve led. I have seen people healed through faith… Literally healed. Someone who was absolutely decimated with cancer, their whole body riddled with tumors and a bleak outlook was given on their life. I joined many people in prayer for him, and at his next checkup the doctor was shocked to inform him that his tumors were gone. Absolutely no trace of them being there. The doctor has no medical/scientific explanation, and neither do I. BUT… I have no choice but to believe that my Savior intervened in this man’s life, to give him a second shot. To allow him to spread testimony to others. God has given me many new amazing friends/fellow believers through my church, and my social network has improved so much as a result. No longer do I need parties, or NEED a bottle. We have great fun focusing on other pastimes and honoring God in the process. I’m not opposed to a beer, nor do I judge those that drink. It’s their walk, and how dare I judge the point at which they are at in their life. God was patient with me and saw me through my addictions, and I am very thankful for that. Others judged me and I remember the pain. I vow to do my best never to do so to others.

I cannot stress to you all how much my life needs Jesus. There is a noticeable, major difference when I honor God with my time, versus when I don’t. When I honor God with my money and resources, there is a HUGE difference in what I reap in my own life, versus when I choose to be selfish. I forfeited my “game” and exchanged my cunning tools of dating I had honed over the years, using women as objects of pleasure instead of thinking of them as someone’s daughter… or even worse, a daughter of Christ. I was ashamed of that, and started simply praying for a Godly woman to enter my life… someone I could honor God with and someone that would boldly claim her love for Christ. It took a year of believing, a lonely year of trusting God… but he has since given me the most wonderful, perfect woman I would imagine. A woman who loves God, serves in Children’s Ministry, loves racing, loves outdoors, has conservative orientations, and last but not least, loves me equally as much as I do her. We keep God central in our relationship and as a result, this is the most amazing relationship I’ve even known. I pray it never ends…

Can I PROVE that God exists? Not to the extent that some demand, and even THEN, I hazard to say that their pride would prevent them from believing. God’s people that Moses delivered from Egypt saw the Red Sea parted before their very eyes, and even THEY had weak faith mere days after the event. So for me to assume that I, John Moorehead, can convert souls with man-made “proof” I have gleaned from books and TV is absurd. All I can do, as a man, is pray for them and continue serving/trusting The Lord and give accounts of how Jesus’ presence has changed MY life. It is not my place to condemn them, or tell them what a miserable soul they are because they haven’t found faith in Jesus. All I can do is lead by example and do my best to follow Christ with an unwavering faith. It doesn’t all make sense. But there is a major difference in my life when I choose to align with Christ, versus when I don’t. My life is for Christ, and everything I am and everything I own is at His mercy, make no mistake about it. If you choose not to believe that, that is your decision. I will still love you the same, as I am called to do. We are all equally yoked in our passion for driving/racing Crossfires, and that alone makes you a cool cat in my book.

If you read all of this, you are a trooper and I thank you. And I would be more than happy to answer any questions… this is just my life and my faith. Jesus is everything to me. I will do my best to answer anything you ask me, but be forewarned, many answers will probably result in me simply saying “I choose to believe”. Christ can’t fit in a box called “science”. I’m not going to be the goon that tries to squeeze Him inside of one.

Bless you all,

--John

 

What a window into your soul John.

Brave post.

You are a good witness. Thanks for sharing.

With respect,


franc

 

Thank you Franc. Hopefully I didn't ramble too much. I see so many people asking for proof.. but it's hard (for me, anyways) to provide that. All I can do is testify. I equate it to someone asking another man/woman to prove how much he/she loves their child... I mean, what would you use, receipts of clothing and food? An itinerary of your time spent with the child? The number of baseballs thrown? How do you fit complete selfless love into a flow chart to explain to another person how much you love your son or daughter?

To me, it's the same type of question. You can't prove it, you simply know it's there.

 

John (JHM2K),

Truly wonderful outpouring of your belief. I applaud anyone who has such strong faith in their belief and while I have for many years pondered, sought, or pleaded the existence or sign of a god, I've yet to see the message if one has been given. Sure, I could just let go of the wheel and tell god take the wheel, I've decided that should it happen it will happen and that all of my answers will or will not be answered when I am dead.

It could very well be that the god of scriptures of the revealed religions is or isn't nearly as demanding as man has written it to be. So while yet a deist, I am still an agnostic to some extent. Should there truly be a monotheistic god I can only hope it is more forgiving than many would have others believe. If not, I'm sure the words from Creed will ring out in my head for eternity; but I will also know that I lived life as honestly and goodly as many who go to church at least once a week.

 

Man, I LOVE this thread so far!
John, good to see your contribution & I'm glad you joined us ! I know Erzer dangled a big juicy carrot in front of our faces; I was hoping you'd put your 2 cents worth in. It's nice to read each others musings on what we believe WITHOUT (so far) coming to insults & other less than civil griping.
Anyways, you & I (& Franc) have been down this road before & we've always kept it at a conversational level! Besides, in this thread Erzer asked for our thoughts, not an argument about who is right or wrong & neither you nor I are going to convince each other that either is wrong. Since that's the case it doesn't do anyone any good to argue!

I've got some catching up to do with this thread but I'll start with you & hope that you don't mind me making a few observations & posing a few questions.
To your comment about athiests knowing the Bible or place-your-particular-holy-book here. Knowledge is understanding, understanding leads to the truth. It behooves any athiest to make an attempt to understand just where a true believer is coming from not to mention that learning about one book or another puts one in a position to make his own judgments about questions he may have. I don't study the Bible any longer, did plenty of that in my younger years, though I still will, from time to time, drag it out to check a reference or 2, I do study ancient civilizations & that's where I first began to make the connection that 'something doesn't smell right here'.
I think I may have put down in some earlier thread about just how I got to where I am today on this whole religion thing so I won't repeat it but suffice it to say that if the basic stories, the very base of a particular religion, the cornerstones let's say, are tainted or make no sense or cannot be reasonable or can be found to be completely plagiarized it kinda places the whole religion under suspicion. This is true of the Bible, the Talmud & especially the Koran. I haven't read or spent much time with any Hindu books so I can't comment on them but I would doubt that they have anything different about them as far as truths go. I would also think (remember, opinion here ONLY) that if any Christian would actually spend time reading the Bible without relying on 'Cliff notes' from his pastor or priest & make his own judgments he or she would begin to have doubts.

And a little doubt keeps us humble & keeps us questioning & searching.

So, yes, perhaps you're right & that's a shame. A shame that more Christians (or insert faith here) don't actually read what they are purporting to believe.

Now, if I may, a couple of questions: Do you honestly believe that you could not have straightened out your life, to your own satisfaction, without relying on a crutch of religion? Do you not think that, given the right motivation, whatever that may be for you, that you could not have corrected what you believe to be an issue by using the talents & the knowledge you've obtained over the course of your young life? This is going to sound bad & I certainly DO NOT want it come off that way but: do you have such little faith in yourself that you feel you needed an outside force to help you? You were experiencing what darn near every young person I've ever known has experienced & done in their lifetime. You were not behaving badly just burning off some 'young man angst'.
And to further the question: do you not feel that, given your past & the early religious upbringing you had that this unnecessary guilt you were feeling was brought on by the same thing that you were proud of as a youngster? In other words, the guilt you were/are feeling was given to you by the very same religion/God you believe in?

Now I know that many, many people have sought help when things are bad in their life. I could tell you many a story about counselor's, mental health institutes, psychiatrists & daughter's sexually molested at 13.
Not to mention drugs & fees & paperwork.........

But these things my wife & I lived through were serious issues & issues that we were unable to cope with, not issues with a partying lifestyle or a perception of misdeeds. Praying to a deity that may or may not exist & hoping for an answer seems to be a whole lot of wishful thinking when wishful thinking wasn't going to be any help!

Once again, thanks John! I always appreciate a meaningful discussion with you. I never fail to learn something from our conversations !

 

Yup, star stuff: we are all made from the same goodies.
I would think quantum theory would have a little to do with this. Uncertainty principles; that the observer of any quantum event changes the outcome simply by observing the event. Or the ability for a quantum particle to change spin at the same time its partner does though the partner is across the room or across the universe. Weird stuff but it does kinda bring to a point that maybe just maybe we really do all have something that binds us together.
That's were spiritualism comes into play. Experiments in "alternate realities" .

 

To the five ****-poor senses we own! Of the 5 only our taste is fairly well along the ole evolutionary scale. The remaining 4 we suck at!
Who knows what else we could experience if we didn't have such rudimentary senses? Scientists believe that some birds use the magnetic poles as guides for migration. Dogs have a nose 10,000 times more sensitive than ours. We all know about eagle & owl eyes. The list goes on & on.

Which, of course, begs the question: if we are supposedly the pinnacle of creation then the creator didn't do such a great job!

 

Maybe I'm ignorant, and if so, then so be it. I take the George Carlin approach to religion.

Do you believe in god?
No <shot rings out>

Do you believe in god?
Yes.
Do you believe in MY god?
No. <shot rings out>

then he goes into his bit about being a sun worshipper.

 

String theory..........yawn. It's come, it's gone & now it's back again!
I don't know, though I'm no mathematician, but it seems to me that if an equation has to be written to take into account 23 or more dimensions that it's as much wishful thinking as prayer is!
I'm much more a fan of branes though they also rely on string theory but not necessarily to an endless number of dimensions.

Think 2 dimensional (height & width) flat panels that exist in higher dimensions. The panels occasionally meet & when they do sh_t happens.....like the big bang.

But it's all theory of course......just fun to think about !

 

well I posed this question to my boss the other day (who is deeply religous), what about people that never heard of god because they never had anyone tell them about Jesus Christ, maybe because they were native american or something. or what about people that were raised as say a buddist and tell you to leave them alone bacause they will never convert.

his response was that he feels they were Predestined to go to hell because god already knew they were never going to be believe.

I respond why even make us to begin with

his response because it pleased god to create people to worship him.

I've already toyed with the thought internally for years but maybe religion is just a form of control to give people some morals?

but at the same time I can't beleive for one second that all tha is in the universe is a big cosmic accident, I guess that's why they call it faith, because we will never really know until we die, if you're wrong you'll either burn in hell or turn into another form of energy and meld back into the earth to be turned into oil in a few million years, either way which one is more comforting.

 

that ranks right up there with this George Carlin quote

every day I beat my own personal record for the number of days I've stayed alive in a row

 

Crap, I completely forgot about the cancer story!

John, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Do you have hospital or clinic records for this man? Who was his doctor? Any previous treatments? What about his history since this has happened?

Please do not tell us that you have no proof or need none & turn right around & offer this story as proof. It's as if I said I have a 600hp Crossfire but have no pictures of the engine nor testimonials about work done, etc.
It makes no sense & doesn't offer anything to your personal story bravely told!

 

I am not aware of the details, but I believe a Baltimore priest is currently up for saint-dom for performing such a miracle. Any connection?

 

I think a large percentage of the trouble in this world stems from the desire of people to want something for nothing.

Theft, extortion, bribery, ponzi schemes, etc., are the result of taking something you have not earned.

Rape, kidnapping, murder, slavery, etc., are acts of taking something that you have not earned.

Sloth, procrastination, idleness, etc, come from a desire to get through life without expending effort.

We invent religions in which we accept unearned guilt as the human condition and then turn to god looking for an unearned salvation from our wickedness and a free ticket to paradise. Following our free salvation experience we turn our eyes heavenward looking for free answers to all our problems, free guidance for every step we take, free protection from all bad things real and imagined, free knowledge and understanding, and, since all things work together for good for them who are called according to his purpose - a free insurance policy against bad outcomes of any sort. All for the small price of turning your life over to god.

How about politics? Politicians in quest of unearned prestige and power steal from the producers of this world to give unearned goodies to anyone with their hand out. Every desire imaginable morphs into a right, to be supplied and paid for by someone else. Businesses flock to their lawmakers to gain privileges over competitors, and unions strangle businesses to gain a larger share of a diminishing pie.

I think its time for a religion that enshrines personal effort and accountabilty, rather than telling people they are crap and they must forsake their own desires to serve another.

I think we need a return to our Constitution, were govenment is handcuffed and people are left free to exercise their right to life.

I think people need a guiding philosophy that tells them they are not a slave to anyone and they have no right to enslave anyone else, either. If you want something, go out and earn it. And in all human relations, the initiation of force is fobidden.

Today, pride is something to be ashamed of. But I think a person deserves pride when he looks at the world with all it's challenges and says "I may not have all the answers, but given my freedom to think and act, let's see what I can make of this!"

 

There are multiple points I’d love to add a couple cents to (I’ll need some time to address them all); but to start, I’m going to address my good buddy Kurts . And just to put you at immediate ease, I was in no way whatsoever offended by any of the questions. In fact, I encourage them and I don’t want you (or anyone else) to hold back on asking anything simply because it may/may not step on my toes.

Could I have wrestled my life “back into shape”… sure. In fact, from a strictly carnal point of view, I didn’t have much to correct. I was a 23 year-old, clean-cut bartender that fought MMA on the side, with a new hottie under my arm every other week. I owned (still do) a 2-story townhouse with a wet-bar, 6-person Jacuzzi, etc. I was living the college dream and if you asked society in general, I was a cool guy to try to emulate. I had cash, tons of friends, two vehicles and a planner full of fun events. Life never got boring. It never became gratifying, either.

Yes, some of my old buddies that were by my side 24/7 during that season are still alive and kicking, and still in debt, and still addicted to the bottle. They are peachy son-of-a-guns on the outside, and they would never have you believe that they are in pain… wanting a way out. Others, yet, have “self-righted” their canoe and lead seemingly normal lives. But, I can’t base my life on the path of others. Alcohol, parties, and a black book thicker than the yellow pages would all be bragging rights of my peers. And they were mine for a season. But, I sought my Savior instead.

See… I knew something deep inside wasn’t right. Money, opulence, friends… you can have all of those, and be rid of all addictions, and STILL be miserable. Why is it that some of the wealthiest, most publicly embraced figures in the world today go to bed crying each night? Not because of what they have… but because of what they don’t. People say money can’t buy happiness, and that’s a fib. I’ve never seen anyone frowning on a Sea Doo, hahaha. BUT, money (and right-standing in life, in general) won’t bring you internal peace. TRUE peace. Knowing where you’re going. Knowing why you’re doing what you’re doing. Our Creator gives us that.

I’ll continue picking on myself, just to illustrate my point. When I align myself with Christ (and by align, I mean pray, serve, etc); I simply have more peace. Life doesn’t necessarily become easier, but I have much more peace about it. Being a Christian is not equated to becoming a weak man that seeks deliverance from all evil… being a Christian IS about seeking Christ to learn more about how to deliver one’s self from the pitfalls of life. It IS about following Christ as a model on how to love others, regardless of their faults, but to hate and rebuke the SIN that consumes them (not the person trapped in the habit). Nothing good comes from the party lifestyle. I know this firsthand. I can impress buddies, but the buddies won’t be the men to answer for my actions on this Earth… I am responsible for MY walk. And at one point, it was utterly fruitless.

These days, I am in church several days a week. I attend a college-age ministry at my church (over 100+ students every Monday night) and I lead one of the groups of guys in that ministry. I pray with them, for them, and offer a shoulder/advice when life is beating them down. I work with the 4th graders on Sunday mornings at 8:30 and I am enthralled with seeing their eagerness and thirst for God. It truly is the highlight of my week and it brings me more joy than anything else. It’s humbling when an eight-year-old can rattle off verse after verse, faster than I can. But Christ has enriched my life. He has replaced the cancerous hobbies I used to immerse myself into… replaced them with meaningful men and women that I feel blessed to minister to on a weekly basis. And for some folks, daily basis as they truly have grown to trust me and they have seen the deliverance. I make that boast in Christ alone. Nothing under my own power, all glory to Him.

So could I “wing it” in life without Christ? I could present a wonderful façade to convince you as much, but the true answer is no. I, John Moorehead, speaking only for myself, can not survive without God’s love and grace. Nor will I ever again try to. Been there, done that, came back yelping with my tail between my legs. If that makes me simple, or weak in your eyes… that’s okay. If there are those that are convinced that they can save themselves, master their own lives and can discard the Man and the Truth which is Jesus, then that is their walk. I will still love and serve them regardless, and live up to the commands I am called to do. Ultimately, it is God, not I, that will pass judgment and how dare I take His role.

I appreciate your candid questions, Kurts. You’re a fine man and I always enjoy hearing from you. I'll explain the cancer testimony momentarily...

 

I've never been administered to a hospital run by bald eagles. Owls didn't engineer the Karmann plant. Dogs didn't invent plastic.

Jackasses do run Washington, however, so you've got me there.

 

[quote=manisusmc]well I posed this question to my boss the other day (who is deeply religous), what about people that never heard of god because they never had anyone tell them about Jesus Christ, maybe because they were native american or something. or what about people that were raised as say a buddist and tell you to leave them alone bacause they will never convert.

his response was that he feels they were Predestined to go to hell because god already knew they were never going to be believe.

I respond why even make us to begin with
his response because it pleased god to create people to worship him.

quote]
I presume that he would also squash them like a fly with no qualms, fundamentalists like your boss are most dangerous and occur in many religions. Watch your back with him as he would treat you in the same fashion if you upset him. There is only one way with him, his way or no way.

You should also ask him how come his god made so many people that did not believe in him, maybe he feels they were made for target practice. I suppose he thinks that a few of the ten commandments should be revised.

 

Key word, "He feels".... not "The Bible says"... I'm sorry that's the answer you received. Give me some time, I'll try to find the verses that cover that situation. In short, every soul will have the opportunity to hear. Not all will accept, and that is their baby at that point. But all will hear. Otherwise, what would they be held accountable for? Rejecting a message they've never heard?