My wife and I just purchased a Ponitiac G5 GT as a daily driver that was a demo with 5000 miles, so we are the official first private owners. When we got it home we noticed the antifreeze was low and so just filled it up assuming it was low from the factory. Well, it wasn't. A couple months later
it was low and so we took it to a Ponitac dealership with the expecation that they would fix it.

They couldn't find the leak, so they pressure tested the coolant system. Still nothing, so they dyed the coolant and told us to go drive it. Did that, took it back, and they said it was the head gasket and they said they replaced it. We have the paperwork that says they did that when we picked it up thinking they had fixed the problem.

Last Friday the coolant was low. So back to the dealership it goes. Now they are saying they didn't replace anything on the car last time (even though we have the paperwork saying otherwise) and that they still don't know where it is leaking. Unfortunately, we think that the antifreeze is getting into the oil because what appears to be frothy snot formed on the oil cap. Dealership is saying that is just condensate, but that sounds like a load of BS to me.

They now want us to just drive the car because they don't know what is wrong with it. This obviously doesn't sound like a solution to me.

Car is GM certified 4yrs, 48000 miles. Has 13000 miles now. 100000 mile powertrain.

Lemon Law is first year/12000 miles, 3 visits unresolved (we are at 2).

Options? Opinions?

 

I think that if it's losing as much as to be noticable (overflow tank?), it would manifest itself in more ways than a bit of froth in the oil filler cap. It would add to the oil level and be visible on the dipstick.

Do you notice any odor of hot antifreeze after driving? I had 2 cracked heads in the Ranger I just Cash-for-Clunkered, and would always lose ~ 2 liters/month and notice that smell.

No antifreeze in the oil, though.

 

I'm not very familiar with the workings of a G5, but I'm going to assume it has an intake manifold made up of some sort of composit matieral other than aluminum or steel. If so, these can warp and cause an antifreez leak.
I'm not sure if a simple gasket change will fix it or not.
Do you notice the fluid level rising on your oils dipstick?
Do you see any tracks of oil running down the side of the motor, and dripping on the floor?
When the motor gets warm, can you smell the faint sweet odor of antifreez being cooked under your hood, or from your exhaust? See any unusual smoke coming out of your talipipe?
Every symptom I mentioned usually has a different cause.
Try to pinpoint exactly where it's coming from, and where it's going. (Something Mr. Goodrench should be doing).
Causes can range from warped intake manifold, bad gasket, cracked cylinder head, and the list goes on.
Since you've reported the problem right from the start, and it seems as though it's been an on going problem, there should be a history set that would require them to continue dealing with it even after your warranty is up. Good Luck

 

Thanks for the response Maxichon.

We have sniffed the oil and can't identify any antifreeze smell yet, there is also no wiff of hot antifreeze after driving.

My wife is picking it up as I type this, and I guess we are going to drive it for a bit (I will take a more serious look at it since I never had the opportunity to look at it before she took it in the second time). The leaking is slowly getting faster and faster since it took it months before the antifreeze was noticeably low the first time, then it went down to weeks for this most recent time.

Now, we tend to keep our daily drivers until the wheels fall off to get our moneys worth out of them. So my major concern is that running this vehicle with antifreeze leaking somewhere into either the engine oil or combustion chamber is shortening the overall life of this engine.

To say I will be angry will be a monumental understatement if this engine fails shortly after the powertrain warranty expires.

I am just dumbfounded that they can't find the problem in two tries, and now they have started lying to us.

This is why GM is going to eventually fail for good, because they slowly lose families like us who would have happily kept buying their cars.

 

Another thought:

antifreeze in the exhaust is measureable on an emissions test.

And another:

See if they will do the pressure/bleed down test with the engine hot.
Idle for 20 minutes with pressure cap off.
Turn off ignition.
Install pressure test cap.
Watch.

 

Question, would anti-freeze show up if you had the oil tested? If so, i would send oil to lab myself to verify!

 

Thank you fireamx as well.

As I said I will take a closer look at it when I get home (assuming it is there). As fireamx said this is all stuff Mr. Goodwrench should have done. Shouldn't be hard to figure out with the battery of techs and equipment that GM dealerships have at their dosposal.

The wife (who is more than bit irate at this point) has taken it from the dealership that is closest to our house back to the dealership we bought it from. I pity those poor people....well, almost.


Edit: Well, as I was just about to blow a gasket myself Brooks Automotive in Connellsville, where we bought the vehicle from, have pulled through for us. After Nikki presented the paperwork from Arnold Palmers (who will never see a dime of my money from here on out) Brooks said that this is obviously a factory defect with this motor and they will replace it under warranty. So we go from one dealership, Arnold Palmers, which appears to be populated with liars, or at the very least incompetents, and get nothing resolved after 2 tries, and the other dealership says we're not going to mess around, this is a new car, and this shouldn't be happening. GM just MIGHT have saved themselves a customer, we'll see if this all actually happens.

If I had known this would have been resolved today I wouldn't have bothered posting, but thanks to those who responded.

At least the wife is happy now, which is going to automatically make my day better.

 

Another way to verify, (though a little gross), is antifreeze is very sweet tasting. Just get a little oil on your finger and touch it to the tip of your tongue.....not a lot, just a little. If it tastes sweet it's antifreeze. As mentioned above, there are many ways for coolant to get into the oil, headgasket and cylinder head cracks are the top two.

You'd be surprised what you can tell about a car by taste......

 

Well congrats on getting the engine replaced ! Sometimes there are casting defects in the engine block which would cause the same issue you were having and without tearing the thing down very difficult to pin point.

Best of luck with the new engine !

 

I had an '88 GMC van with a 4.3L V-6 engine and GM had trouble with the head gaskets this resulted in a major recall in the States, in Canada no recall and no help unless it was really obvious.
My van used anti-freeze up quite slowly, there was a leak around the water pump and I felt it was just that problem. I did not know that both head gaskets were leaking. This resulted in major damage to the engine, I complained that I was using a liter of oil in 200 miles, the stealership said they would monitor it in a test carried out over time. I told them I knew it was burning oil so why do the test, they just gave me the runaround. When the car started belching smoke I was past any warranty and investigated it myself. the steel oil cap was rusting out from the inside and was filled with moisture and a white slimey goo.
I decided to take the engine apart bit by bit, I found the engine sludged up, and oil galleries plugged with sludge, under the head covers I found cup fulls of sludge. I ended up taking the engine out and had it rebuilt with top quality parts. All the bearing surfaces were ruined, the push rods were three sided instead of dome shaped just like it had been put on a hand grinder.
That was the last GM vehicle I purchased, my last five have been Chrysler's.

 

As an aside, because the wife and I both have engineering degrees we are technically inclined and therefore want to know the details as to why things go wrong. This is what my wife told me after talking to the head mechanic (since I obviously wanted the reasoning behind the sudden 180):

What Brooks figured out based upon the other dealerships work, which also included pressure testing the head, was that the block is the most likely problem. The 2.4 L engine (this is the same engine in the base solstice/sky and I also believe the new Malibu) has steel sleeves in an aluminum block, and apparently the steel sleeves can crack, causing a mysterious coolant leak into the oil. The head mechanic down there is very familiar with this problem since Cadillacs with a similar set up(I don't know what years or models) also have exhibited this problem. So there, I learned something.

In any case, nothing is appoved yet, but we should know in a couple days whether or not GM gives the green light.

In response to onehundred80 - ouch, and I don't blame you.

 

Geez. sounds like a Vega...

 

send a oil sample off to a lab (phenix labs, proxis, ect) cost about 20$, takes a week and you'll get a nice and professional report to throw in the dealerships face.

Keep in mind oil pressure tends to be greater then coolant pressure so for a leak to be coolant to oil it's either really bad or only happening when the car is shut down.

The biggest problem with head gasket swaps is most of the time the head (or possibly block) will get warped from the over heating. The head or block need to be decked in order to fix the problem. Especially with an aluminum block/head.

If I recall that engine is a open deck aluminum block, so chances are the bridges between the sleeves are cracked/warped. Over heating, beating the **** out of it on test drives, pretty much any hard abuse can tax them and thats usually the weakest link on a open deck/sleeved block.

crap on the underside of the oil filler cap is the old tried and true method, a mechanic telling you "it's probably condensate" shouldnt be your mechanic. show him the oil cap to your other car and it's lack of crap under it.

 

Shame on you Max.....that's a 4 letter word.

 

Ouch, too bad cash for clunkers is over.

 

I'm sorry. That was uncalled for. Just an observation!

 

No need to apologize, hardly offended but instead amused. The truth is inconvenient sometimes. Hopefully this is the one glitch this car has, and will give us many years of dutiful service after this. Hopefully.

 

wow, and 180, I ate one of those motors in my 88 van....4.3 liter...cost me 1200 bucks for an aftermarket...because my warranty was up...now, I can tell my sky and soltice friends the good new...LOL>>>

 

Be gentle Doc. To be fair, I believe this is the one of the first if not the first example of a catastrophic failure from the factory with the 2.4L.

Of course, I could just be hopeful because we own two of them. This one that has failed and my daily driver also has the 2.4L. We actually bought my wife's car because mine has been flawless through 33000 miles. I get 30 mpg in mixed city/highway and the 170 horsepower is just enough to keep me happy in between Crossfire runs.