Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
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From: San Antonio - Republic of Texas (ROT)
Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
I wrote up a piece on the effect of Ethanol for my British car club as ethanol has, more or less, become the new standard for fuel (at least in the USofA). With this in mind I began researching about how it might be affecting my vehicles; especially since I'd been under the notion that gasoline (sans any ethanol) had a life of six months and up to a year.
Some of what I learned is that ethanol, made from corn or grain, is added to gasoline to oxygenate it, replacing the older additive, MTBE. Names for gasoline mixed with ethanol include E10, gasohol, corn fuel, alcohol fuel, and reformulated or renewable fuel. Since I do not use my British car as a daily driver, the question arose as to what affect this fuel might have on my car. But, soon the words "doom and gloom" were replaced by the term "phase separation" in my vocabulary.
Some of the Many Products Out There (Usual disclaimers and non-attribution policy in affect)
1) Fuel Stabilizer:
STA-BIL - On average, STA-BIL improves gasoline life 5 times. The average gasoline is extended from 3 months oxidation life without STA-BIL to 15 months with STA-BIL. Compared to any other products pretending to extend fuel life, STA-BIL is 4 to 9 times more effective according to accepted standard fuel stability tests IASTM D5251.
What Kind of Engines Need STA-BIL? Any engine stored for 90 days or more needs STA-BIL. Add STA-BIL to the fuel according to the recommended dosage on the package. (Measuring is easy based on the number of squeezes through the measuring cap. Agitate the fuel tank if possible, then start and run the engine for 5 minutes or more. After that, simply shut off the engine and store the equipment away.
2) Testing for water presence:
Water Probe Indicator - Apply on dip stick. Turns red showing the exact level of water in your fuel tank. It's far better to be safe than sorry. Find out if there's water in your tank before it's a serious problem. Remove with MDR's Water Zorb or E-Zorb if using E-10 Ethanol gasoline.
3) Emulsifier to treat separated layers:
E-Zorb Ethanol Gasoline Water Remover - Formulated to totally emulsify phased out water and ethanol at the bottom of a fuel tank back into the E-10 gasoline. The water will pass through the finest filters with the gasoline and burn through the engine as steam. In the process, the octane phased out with the ethanol, is also replaced back into the fuel. Not for gas without ethanol.
4) Spring Treatment:
Gasoline Start Fresh - Combines gasoline additives into a Spring treatment to give gasoline a fresh start after winter storage. Gasoline Start Fresh to improve performance, retards corrosion, keeps gas lines clean and reduces maintenance.
Some of what I learned is that ethanol, made from corn or grain, is added to gasoline to oxygenate it, replacing the older additive, MTBE. Names for gasoline mixed with ethanol include E10, gasohol, corn fuel, alcohol fuel, and reformulated or renewable fuel. Since I do not use my British car as a daily driver, the question arose as to what affect this fuel might have on my car. But, soon the words "doom and gloom" were replaced by the term "phase separation" in my vocabulary.
The key problem is that ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere. In fact, fuel with 10 percent ethanol absorbs up to 50 times more water than standard gasoline. Older gas tanks found in many classic cars vent to the atmosphere, increasing the likelihood that moisture will be absorbed into the gas tank at a rapid pace.
The end result of water in the fuel is phase separation. The fuel separates into two distinct layers: a thick layer of gasoline mixed with a little ethanol on top, and a thinner layer on the bottom consisting of water mixed with most of the ethanol. And it doesn't take much water for this to happen--phase separation occurs in a galon of 10 percent ethanol blend with just 3.8 teaspoons of water.
Fuel Phase Separation Problems
What happens to your car and it's performance when water causes fuel phase separation?
Reduce fuel longevity: A gasoline / ethanol blend absorbs water until it triggers phase separation. The blend has a 90-day product life in a closed tank, but lasts 30 - 45 days in a vented tank. With 10 percent ethanol blends, owners are supposed to replace the fuel in vented tanks abut once a month by driving or draining, taking into consideration the humidity in the atmosphere and temperatures.
Lower fuel octane: The ethanol in a gasoline blend provides some of the octane rating. When phase separation occurs, the octane rating of the remaining fuel can drop by as much as 3 points.
Poor engine performance: The fuel pump could easily pick up a slug of water / ethanol slurry at the bottom of the tank, interrupting the flow of gas to the engine. This will cause the engine to miss, run rough and possibly stall altogether.
Corrosion and rust: Water in the bottom of the fuel tank and inside the fuel lines will cause corrosion and rust, and the solvent properties of the ethanol will loosen that up, along with bits of sediment and deposits. The resulting debris floating in the fuel could clog fuel filters, fuel lines and carburetor float valves.
Specific Parts Affect by Ethanol
Fuel tank: Ethanol could dislodge sediment and deposits in older gas tanks and fuel lines. Loose debris in the fuel could clog the fuel filter, or cause engine flooding if the carburetor float valve sticks.
Fuel pump: Rubber diaphragms inside the fuel pump may have problems with ethanol exposure.
Carburetor float valve: Float valve needles on early cars were brass, and these were replaced with plastic needles or brass needles with Viton (a specific type of rubber) tips. Ethanol can cause the plastic needles to swell up an stick either open or shut, which causes either massive flooding or starves the carburetor for fuel. Some owners have resorted to shaving down the plastic needle to get to ride smoothly and seat properly. Instead, you can install an all-brass needle and seat, or a Viton-tipped needle if available for your car model, which are not affedted by lower levels of ethanol.
Carburetor floats: The Zenith-Stromberg floats found specifically/only in the TR4 and 4A made of foam covered with a skin ma deteriorate when exposed to ethanol. Other plastic floats, like those used by SU, may also be affected.
Hoses: Ethanol could dry out or deteriorate rubber hoses.
Seals: Ethanol could shrink, swell or deteriorate seals, depending on the material.
Gaskets: Ehtanol may deteriorate the rubber in rubber / cork composite gaskets. Fiber washers and gaskets are not affected.
Aluminum and aluminum alloy parts: Aluminum and alloys fare fine with 10 percent ethanol, but are damaged by 25 percent ethanol.
Avoiding Ethanol Problems
● Run your engine on fresh fuel from a major supplier in a location with lots of traffic.
● Add fuel stabilizers when you put gas in your car to lengthen the life span of the fuel.
● Buy higher-octane gasoline to be certain your engine gets the minimum octane necessary for good performance.
● Keep track of he dates you buy fuel, how much you bought, and how much is in the tank when left sitting for a period of time. Keep a log book for reference.
● If you have a closed tank, make sure it is truly closed. Listen for a hiss of air escaping when you take the gas cap off after driving.
● Test your gas tank periodically to see if water is accumulating or phase separation has occurred. Treat accordingly.
● If you don't have a fuel filter before the carburetor (many British cars only have a screen), consider installing one to catch loosened rust and sediments from the gas tank before it clogs engine components. Moss offers one with a glass bowl for at-a-glance inspection, yet it features a period-correct look (Fuel Pressure Regulator/Filter #377-435). Check your fuel filter often.
● Consider adding a second fuel filter between the tank and the fuel pump to protect the fuel pump from damage from loose debris from the tank (Moss part #377-310).
● Keep engine parts well lubricated to counteract the solvent effect of ethanol.
● Regularly inspect all fuel system components, seals and connectors from the tank to the carburetor. Ensure there are no leaks and the system is in good shape.
Vented or Closed Fuel Tank?
Not sure whether your British car has a vented or closed fuel tank? You need to know this detail in order to have a fell for how long the gas in your will remain good.
A sure giveaway of a closed tank is the presence of a carbon canister, which was added for pollution control purposes along with the closed fuel tanks. It's often located at the back of the engine compartment, on the passenger side. To verify what it looks like and the positioning in your car, look at the diagram of the engine compartment for your model on the Moss website. Note that some aftermarket gas caps are vented, so they can render a closed system open to the atmosphere.
Full or Empty?
Trying to decide whether you should keep your fuel tank completely full or near empty? The answer isn't clear. It all depends on how you're using the car, the humidity where your live, the type of tank found in your car, and your willingness to closely monitor the situation.
During the driving season:
ome British car owners keep very little fuel (treated with fuel stabilizer) in their tank, and when they take it out, they first stop at the gas station to p ut in about the amount of gas they think they will nee. That way they are always running fresh gas, and they park it back in the garage with a small amount of treated fuel to minimize the amount of gas that could go bad and separate. But British fuel gauges are notoriously inaccurate, so you could run the risk of running out of gas on the way to the gas station.
Other owners keep the tank completely full, which means the surface of the fuel exposed to the humidity in the atmosphere is restricted to just the diameter of the fuel filler neck rather than the larger surface area inside the tank. Of course absorption of water by the ethanol is affected by whether the tank is vented or not, and by the humidity at that time of year. But considering the short life span of ethanol/gasoline blends, you'll have to add fuel stabilizer and drive far enough to regularly burn u the gas so your whole tank of fuel doesn't go bad.
During the winter:
Whether you're storing your car over the winter or driving it every once in a while in cold temperatures, your strategy for your fuel tank may be different at this time of year. If you leave a vented tank full, even with fuel stabilizers, you'll have phase separation and water in two months. That means draining the tank every two months to eliminate the bad fuel and harmful water If you leave it until spring, you could have to deal with the effects of rust and also still have to drain the tank. If you're lucky enough to have a closed tank , you may be able to get through the winter with fuel stabilizer, which gives the fuel a six-month life span. You could drive of of the garage come spring unscathed. To be sure, test the tank for the presence of water first, and emulsify or drain the tank contents if necessary.
If you leave your tank near empty with just a bit of treated fuel in the bottom during the winter, you won't have much ethanol to absorb water into the tank or much gas to go bad But the steel walls of a near-empty fuel tank will condense with the shifting cold-warm temperatures, creating more water in the tank and potentially rusting the side walls, as well as the floor of the where the water accumulates. This condensation would happen in both vented and closed empty tanks.
The end result of water in the fuel is phase separation. The fuel separates into two distinct layers: a thick layer of gasoline mixed with a little ethanol on top, and a thinner layer on the bottom consisting of water mixed with most of the ethanol. And it doesn't take much water for this to happen--phase separation occurs in a galon of 10 percent ethanol blend with just 3.8 teaspoons of water.
Fuel Phase Separation Problems
What happens to your car and it's performance when water causes fuel phase separation?
Reduce fuel longevity: A gasoline / ethanol blend absorbs water until it triggers phase separation. The blend has a 90-day product life in a closed tank, but lasts 30 - 45 days in a vented tank. With 10 percent ethanol blends, owners are supposed to replace the fuel in vented tanks abut once a month by driving or draining, taking into consideration the humidity in the atmosphere and temperatures.
Lower fuel octane: The ethanol in a gasoline blend provides some of the octane rating. When phase separation occurs, the octane rating of the remaining fuel can drop by as much as 3 points.
Poor engine performance: The fuel pump could easily pick up a slug of water / ethanol slurry at the bottom of the tank, interrupting the flow of gas to the engine. This will cause the engine to miss, run rough and possibly stall altogether.
Corrosion and rust: Water in the bottom of the fuel tank and inside the fuel lines will cause corrosion and rust, and the solvent properties of the ethanol will loosen that up, along with bits of sediment and deposits. The resulting debris floating in the fuel could clog fuel filters, fuel lines and carburetor float valves.
Specific Parts Affect by Ethanol
Fuel tank: Ethanol could dislodge sediment and deposits in older gas tanks and fuel lines. Loose debris in the fuel could clog the fuel filter, or cause engine flooding if the carburetor float valve sticks.
Fuel pump: Rubber diaphragms inside the fuel pump may have problems with ethanol exposure.
Carburetor float valve: Float valve needles on early cars were brass, and these were replaced with plastic needles or brass needles with Viton (a specific type of rubber) tips. Ethanol can cause the plastic needles to swell up an stick either open or shut, which causes either massive flooding or starves the carburetor for fuel. Some owners have resorted to shaving down the plastic needle to get to ride smoothly and seat properly. Instead, you can install an all-brass needle and seat, or a Viton-tipped needle if available for your car model, which are not affedted by lower levels of ethanol.
Carburetor floats: The Zenith-Stromberg floats found specifically/only in the TR4 and 4A made of foam covered with a skin ma deteriorate when exposed to ethanol. Other plastic floats, like those used by SU, may also be affected.
Hoses: Ethanol could dry out or deteriorate rubber hoses.
Seals: Ethanol could shrink, swell or deteriorate seals, depending on the material.
Gaskets: Ehtanol may deteriorate the rubber in rubber / cork composite gaskets. Fiber washers and gaskets are not affected.
Aluminum and aluminum alloy parts: Aluminum and alloys fare fine with 10 percent ethanol, but are damaged by 25 percent ethanol.
Avoiding Ethanol Problems
● Run your engine on fresh fuel from a major supplier in a location with lots of traffic.
● Add fuel stabilizers when you put gas in your car to lengthen the life span of the fuel.
● Buy higher-octane gasoline to be certain your engine gets the minimum octane necessary for good performance.
● Keep track of he dates you buy fuel, how much you bought, and how much is in the tank when left sitting for a period of time. Keep a log book for reference.
● If you have a closed tank, make sure it is truly closed. Listen for a hiss of air escaping when you take the gas cap off after driving.
● Test your gas tank periodically to see if water is accumulating or phase separation has occurred. Treat accordingly.
● If you don't have a fuel filter before the carburetor (many British cars only have a screen), consider installing one to catch loosened rust and sediments from the gas tank before it clogs engine components. Moss offers one with a glass bowl for at-a-glance inspection, yet it features a period-correct look (Fuel Pressure Regulator/Filter #377-435). Check your fuel filter often.
● Consider adding a second fuel filter between the tank and the fuel pump to protect the fuel pump from damage from loose debris from the tank (Moss part #377-310).
● Keep engine parts well lubricated to counteract the solvent effect of ethanol.
● Regularly inspect all fuel system components, seals and connectors from the tank to the carburetor. Ensure there are no leaks and the system is in good shape.
Vented or Closed Fuel Tank?
Not sure whether your British car has a vented or closed fuel tank? You need to know this detail in order to have a fell for how long the gas in your will remain good.
A sure giveaway of a closed tank is the presence of a carbon canister, which was added for pollution control purposes along with the closed fuel tanks. It's often located at the back of the engine compartment, on the passenger side. To verify what it looks like and the positioning in your car, look at the diagram of the engine compartment for your model on the Moss website. Note that some aftermarket gas caps are vented, so they can render a closed system open to the atmosphere.
Full or Empty?
Trying to decide whether you should keep your fuel tank completely full or near empty? The answer isn't clear. It all depends on how you're using the car, the humidity where your live, the type of tank found in your car, and your willingness to closely monitor the situation.
During the driving season:
ome British car owners keep very little fuel (treated with fuel stabilizer) in their tank, and when they take it out, they first stop at the gas station to p ut in about the amount of gas they think they will nee. That way they are always running fresh gas, and they park it back in the garage with a small amount of treated fuel to minimize the amount of gas that could go bad and separate. But British fuel gauges are notoriously inaccurate, so you could run the risk of running out of gas on the way to the gas station.
Other owners keep the tank completely full, which means the surface of the fuel exposed to the humidity in the atmosphere is restricted to just the diameter of the fuel filler neck rather than the larger surface area inside the tank. Of course absorption of water by the ethanol is affected by whether the tank is vented or not, and by the humidity at that time of year. But considering the short life span of ethanol/gasoline blends, you'll have to add fuel stabilizer and drive far enough to regularly burn u the gas so your whole tank of fuel doesn't go bad.
During the winter:
Whether you're storing your car over the winter or driving it every once in a while in cold temperatures, your strategy for your fuel tank may be different at this time of year. If you leave a vented tank full, even with fuel stabilizers, you'll have phase separation and water in two months. That means draining the tank every two months to eliminate the bad fuel and harmful water If you leave it until spring, you could have to deal with the effects of rust and also still have to drain the tank. If you're lucky enough to have a closed tank , you may be able to get through the winter with fuel stabilizer, which gives the fuel a six-month life span. You could drive of of the garage come spring unscathed. To be sure, test the tank for the presence of water first, and emulsify or drain the tank contents if necessary.
If you leave your tank near empty with just a bit of treated fuel in the bottom during the winter, you won't have much ethanol to absorb water into the tank or much gas to go bad But the steel walls of a near-empty fuel tank will condense with the shifting cold-warm temperatures, creating more water in the tank and potentially rusting the side walls, as well as the floor of the where the water accumulates. This condensation would happen in both vented and closed empty tanks.
1) Fuel Stabilizer:
STA-BIL - On average, STA-BIL improves gasoline life 5 times. The average gasoline is extended from 3 months oxidation life without STA-BIL to 15 months with STA-BIL. Compared to any other products pretending to extend fuel life, STA-BIL is 4 to 9 times more effective according to accepted standard fuel stability tests IASTM D5251.
What Kind of Engines Need STA-BIL? Any engine stored for 90 days or more needs STA-BIL. Add STA-BIL to the fuel according to the recommended dosage on the package. (Measuring is easy based on the number of squeezes through the measuring cap. Agitate the fuel tank if possible, then start and run the engine for 5 minutes or more. After that, simply shut off the engine and store the equipment away.
2) Testing for water presence:
Water Probe Indicator - Apply on dip stick. Turns red showing the exact level of water in your fuel tank. It's far better to be safe than sorry. Find out if there's water in your tank before it's a serious problem. Remove with MDR's Water Zorb or E-Zorb if using E-10 Ethanol gasoline.
3) Emulsifier to treat separated layers:
E-Zorb Ethanol Gasoline Water Remover - Formulated to totally emulsify phased out water and ethanol at the bottom of a fuel tank back into the E-10 gasoline. The water will pass through the finest filters with the gasoline and burn through the engine as steam. In the process, the octane phased out with the ethanol, is also replaced back into the fuel. Not for gas without ethanol.
4) Spring Treatment:
Gasoline Start Fresh - Combines gasoline additives into a Spring treatment to give gasoline a fresh start after winter storage. Gasoline Start Fresh to improve performance, retards corrosion, keeps gas lines clean and reduces maintenance.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,499
Likes: 1,125
From: St Louis MO
Re: Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
Nice piece.
Even without all the tecnhnical and mechanical issues, from another perspective.......
We should not burn food in our cars. It is, quite frankly, immoral.
Roadster with a stick
Even without all the tecnhnical and mechanical issues, from another perspective.......
We should not burn food in our cars. It is, quite frankly, immoral.
Roadster with a stick
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 465
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From: San Antonio - Republic of Texas (ROT)
Re: Ethanol (Now Really Boring)
And to further elucidate or obfuscate, depending on you viewpoint:
Dirty little secrets of USA gasoline refining (and our political protectors):
The problem with ethanol is it's affinity for water. Actually, that's only a problem when you decide to mix it with gasoline, which hates water (you could run your engine on 160 proof apple brandy, but the USA government frowns on untaxed "drinkin' liquor").
The warnings I provided are "worst case", but are certainly not outside the realm of possibility. The key is to turn over the gasoline regularly. In other words, drive your vehicle in the winter, if for no other reason than to enjoy the pastoral countryside in a different season for something completely different. Stabilizers help by adding a component to keep the water (and ethanol) soluble in gasoline. They don't really prevent water from entering the mix.
Which brings up an important point - gasoline is a mix of hydrocarbons from C4 through about C10. Octane is a measure of the fuel's resistance to spontaneously combusting when compressed until sparked. Branched hydrocarbons resist better than straight-chains. Ethanol has a high octane number also.
As I tend to disagree with the general advice to buy the highest octane gasoline. It may also have the highest ethanol content, with a higher affinity for humid air. USofA gasoline is usually sold under the warning "may contain up to 10% ethanol", but you have no idea how much is really there. Refineries make money by stretching octane-barrels with the lowest cost component. And unless you're making your own fuel, you won't find out - the service station probably doesn't know, either.
Enough engineering, to the meat of the matter - turn over your fuel. There are other reasons to do so, besides ethanol - winter gasoline (yes, Virginia, different formulas for different seasons & areas of the country-politician driven like daylight saving time, global warming, yellow fire engines, etc etc) contains more butane than summer, which will boil off during warm weather, and your fuel may look like varnish. The larger swings between low and high temperatures (spring and autumn) will work more water into your fuel and boil off more light (and high octane) components.
Stabilizers help but are not a panacea. And ethanol isn't the only oxygenate put into gasoline.
One could install a Micro Fueler in their garage, it produces E100 ethanol which not being "drinkin liquor" won't create tax issues with local nor federal government entities. If you're interested you can read about the Micro Fueler system or look at purchasing a Micro Fueler System. You'll notice in the article that E100 ethanol, (being pure alcohol) can be mixed with water at 70/30 ratio still maintaining enough octane levels for most vehicles.
OR you can use use any number of products to prevent or eliminate water in fuel which produces ice crystals and blockages.
The will range from a small containers of a few ounces of isopropyl alcohol (they come with trade names of De Icer or Iso-heet ) to a gallon or two of wood alcohol (methanol) in a 1000 gallon heating oil reservoir. In both cases they will work in minutes. (Methanol is actually more effective. They will equally solve water problems in a tank..but are a quick fix as they last only as long as the fuel they
were mixed with. It can be added a bit with each fill-up or when the lines freeze.
HOWEVER, there is an ingenious season-long solution that folks up north use that really, really works (sorry, Ron) perfectly. They are called Water Eliminators.
These are small open mesh plastic tubes that contain pieces of water adsorbent polymers (that look a bit like crystals). They will attract and absorb water in fuel..even emulsified water in any type of fuel.
They come (in a range of sizes) with long strings and, for example, on a snowmobile one simply attaches the other end of the spring to the cap.
Water Eliminator
Water 7
Have phun
Dirty little secrets of USA gasoline refining (and our political protectors):
The problem with ethanol is it's affinity for water. Actually, that's only a problem when you decide to mix it with gasoline, which hates water (you could run your engine on 160 proof apple brandy, but the USA government frowns on untaxed "drinkin' liquor").
The warnings I provided are "worst case", but are certainly not outside the realm of possibility. The key is to turn over the gasoline regularly. In other words, drive your vehicle in the winter, if for no other reason than to enjoy the pastoral countryside in a different season for something completely different. Stabilizers help by adding a component to keep the water (and ethanol) soluble in gasoline. They don't really prevent water from entering the mix.
Which brings up an important point - gasoline is a mix of hydrocarbons from C4 through about C10. Octane is a measure of the fuel's resistance to spontaneously combusting when compressed until sparked. Branched hydrocarbons resist better than straight-chains. Ethanol has a high octane number also.
As I tend to disagree with the general advice to buy the highest octane gasoline. It may also have the highest ethanol content, with a higher affinity for humid air. USofA gasoline is usually sold under the warning "may contain up to 10% ethanol", but you have no idea how much is really there. Refineries make money by stretching octane-barrels with the lowest cost component. And unless you're making your own fuel, you won't find out - the service station probably doesn't know, either.
Enough engineering, to the meat of the matter - turn over your fuel. There are other reasons to do so, besides ethanol - winter gasoline (yes, Virginia, different formulas for different seasons & areas of the country-politician driven like daylight saving time, global warming, yellow fire engines, etc etc) contains more butane than summer, which will boil off during warm weather, and your fuel may look like varnish. The larger swings between low and high temperatures (spring and autumn) will work more water into your fuel and boil off more light (and high octane) components.
Stabilizers help but are not a panacea. And ethanol isn't the only oxygenate put into gasoline.
One could install a Micro Fueler in their garage, it produces E100 ethanol which not being "drinkin liquor" won't create tax issues with local nor federal government entities. If you're interested you can read about the Micro Fueler system or look at purchasing a Micro Fueler System. You'll notice in the article that E100 ethanol, (being pure alcohol) can be mixed with water at 70/30 ratio still maintaining enough octane levels for most vehicles.
OR you can use use any number of products to prevent or eliminate water in fuel which produces ice crystals and blockages.
The will range from a small containers of a few ounces of isopropyl alcohol (they come with trade names of De Icer or Iso-heet ) to a gallon or two of wood alcohol (methanol) in a 1000 gallon heating oil reservoir. In both cases they will work in minutes. (Methanol is actually more effective. They will equally solve water problems in a tank..but are a quick fix as they last only as long as the fuel they
were mixed with. It can be added a bit with each fill-up or when the lines freeze.
HOWEVER, there is an ingenious season-long solution that folks up north use that really, really works (sorry, Ron) perfectly. They are called Water Eliminators.
These are small open mesh plastic tubes that contain pieces of water adsorbent polymers (that look a bit like crystals). They will attract and absorb water in fuel..even emulsified water in any type of fuel.
They come (in a range of sizes) with long strings and, for example, on a snowmobile one simply attaches the other end of the spring to the cap.
Water Eliminator
Water 7
Have phun
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,508
Likes: 34
From: VA
Re: Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
Bahhha Humbugg. Is it worth anything, AT this time???
The total amount of energy input into the process compared to the energy released by burning the resulting ethanol fuel is known as the energy balance (or "Net energy gain"). Figures compiled in a 2007 by National Geographic Magazine[45] point to modest results for corn ethanol produced in the US: one unit of fossil-fuel energy is required to create 1.3 energy units from the resulting ethanol. The energy balance for sugarcane ethanol produced in Brazil is more favorable, 1:8. Energy balance estimates are not easily produced, thus numerous such reports have been generated that are contradictory. For instance, a separate survey reports that production of ethanol from sugarcane, which requires a tropical climate to grow productively, returns from 8 to 9 units of energy for each unit expended, as compared to corn which only returns about 1.34 units of fuel energy for each unit of energy expended.[
Really??? Woody
The total amount of energy input into the process compared to the energy released by burning the resulting ethanol fuel is known as the energy balance (or "Net energy gain"). Figures compiled in a 2007 by National Geographic Magazine[45] point to modest results for corn ethanol produced in the US: one unit of fossil-fuel energy is required to create 1.3 energy units from the resulting ethanol. The energy balance for sugarcane ethanol produced in Brazil is more favorable, 1:8. Energy balance estimates are not easily produced, thus numerous such reports have been generated that are contradictory. For instance, a separate survey reports that production of ethanol from sugarcane, which requires a tropical climate to grow productively, returns from 8 to 9 units of energy for each unit expended, as compared to corn which only returns about 1.34 units of fuel energy for each unit of energy expended.[
Really??? Woody
Thread Starter
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Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 465
Likes: 1
From: San Antonio - Republic of Texas (ROT)
Re: Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
Thank you for the respose.
Costs 10-15% more at the pump.
You get 10-15% less mileage in the car.
Potential problems with water (phase separation)
Creates problems in the food chain for some countries.
Keeps the Iowa corn farmers happy.
Why do we use it?
Politics, my friend, politics.
Diesel is the real short term answer.
But, then again politics, my friend, politics.
What will the long term solution be?
Politics, my friend, politics
Costs 10-15% more at the pump.
You get 10-15% less mileage in the car.
Potential problems with water (phase separation)
Creates problems in the food chain for some countries.
Keeps the Iowa corn farmers happy.
Why do we use it?
Politics, my friend, politics.
Diesel is the real short term answer.
But, then again politics, my friend, politics.
What will the long term solution be?
Politics, my friend, politics
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 12
Re: Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
For many of the reasons listed in the above threads I use only 100% gasoline (at least it's listed as such at the local fuel station), and when I'm elsewhere, I'll hunt till I find the same. 
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 12
Re: Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
Originally Posted by Veloce
You, my friend, are very fortunate.
Would you mind providing us the city/brand?
Would you mind providing us the city/brand?
Administrator
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,950
Likes: 1,276
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
Originally Posted by smfrycruzr
Sure, glad to. Yukon, OK. The station at the N.W. corner of Ranchwood (St. Hwy. 4) and Old 66 (Main Street), at the Express E (The old Rhoades Conoco). Going for @$2.79 92 Oct. The only ones around here with "real gas".
Stay out of Georiga... as far as I can tell, there is no longer any 100% gasoline sold in this state.
Re: Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
I recently discovered this problem in our gas cans for the mower and pressure washer. The fuel had sat since winter and I noticed what I thought was a large collection of water on the bottom. After pouring off the gasoline and separating the "water" I noticed the smell was more like a solvent than just water. We now will try to use up our gas rather than store it for long periods.
Thanks for posting this write up. It certainly verifies what I suspected to be true about our mower gas.
Thanks for posting this write up. It certainly verifies what I suspected to be true about our mower gas.
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 25,432
Likes: 647
From: Ontario
Re: Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
I recently discovered this problem in our gas cans for the mower and pressure washer. The fuel had sat since winter and I noticed what I thought was a large collection of water on the bottom. After pouring off the gasoline and separating the "water" I noticed the smell was more like a solvent than just water. We now will try to use up our gas rather than store it for long periods.
Thanks for posting this write up. It certainly verifies what I suspected to be true about our mower gas.
Thanks for posting this write up. It certainly verifies what I suspected to be true about our mower gas.
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,920
Likes: 25
From: Spacecoast, Florida
Re: Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
Guess I'm one of the VERY lucky ones that has access to 93 non-ethanol right around the corner!!
Here's a listing of current stations all over the US and Canada with non-ethanol fuel...
Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
To Pizzaguy...
Cumming UNBRANDED 90 Bald Ridge Marina 1850 Bald Ridge Marina RdCumming PETRO POWER 90 Quik Stop 2383 Canton Hwy
Here's a listing of current stations all over the US and Canada with non-ethanol fuel...
Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
To Pizzaguy...
Cumming UNBRANDED 90 Bald Ridge Marina 1850 Bald Ridge Marina RdCumming PETRO POWER 90 Quik Stop 2383 Canton Hwy
Last edited by syfi; Jan 8, 2013 at 10:05 PM.
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 295
Likes: 2
From: Lansing, IL.
Re: Ethanol (Rather Lengthy Verging on Boring)
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Hey Guys...
I live in Illinois and it is clearly an ethanol state. I have found that using a few ounces of Stabil during fuel up solves the problem. I also use it prior to storing my baby away for the winter. Come spring time she fires right up at the first turn of the key. When the first initial springtime tank gets empty, I use a can of Seafoam to clean the winter cobwebs out.
I also use 93 octane and try not to mix brands. So far Shell and Phillips 66 has given me the best MPG. This past summer averaged 27 MPG Hwy - 21 MPG city. She has a touch over 60K miles and she still purrs at idle and growls at the punch of the accelerator. OMG The looks and challenges I get when I pull up to the stop light. But my Crossfire is a lady and I treat her as such. No racing...no foolishness...No daredevil stunts. We plan on being together for awhile and our major concern is stylin' profilin' and showing these youngin's what class is all about!!
Hey Guys...
I live in Illinois and it is clearly an ethanol state. I have found that using a few ounces of Stabil during fuel up solves the problem. I also use it prior to storing my baby away for the winter. Come spring time she fires right up at the first turn of the key. When the first initial springtime tank gets empty, I use a can of Seafoam to clean the winter cobwebs out.
I also use 93 octane and try not to mix brands. So far Shell and Phillips 66 has given me the best MPG. This past summer averaged 27 MPG Hwy - 21 MPG city. She has a touch over 60K miles and she still purrs at idle and growls at the punch of the accelerator. OMG The looks and challenges I get when I pull up to the stop light. But my Crossfire is a lady and I treat her as such. No racing...no foolishness...No daredevil stunts. We plan on being together for awhile and our major concern is stylin' profilin' and showing these youngin's what class is all about!!
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