My top stopped working one evening. It would not go up or down using the switch in the console. The following things were happening or not happening:

When I undo the D ring the windows go down. You can hear the trunk lock but the top doesn't operate. I started by checking each of the micro switches. I've jumped the divider switch in the trunk and provided a solid ground. I've checked the switch above the passengers head and it seems to click and operate correctly. I've done the same to the bow switch and the tonneau switch...etc.etc.

I've had Brian H. come out with his scanner and mention that there didn't seem to be a signal from the top control unit and that would be the next thing to check. The Lock Pump seems to be operating as the power locks and spoiler work normally so we ruled that out. No leaks in the hydraulics and no water entry into the trunk. When I manually put the top up or down I was able to get the final “beep” and the light on the switch would go out if I held the button in the position the roof was in. This I believe indicated that the roof has completed a cycle. Based on this info I chased down a Top Control Computer at Expressive Auto in Tampa and swapped it out. Now everything changed! The top still doesn't work. Now the light on the console switch continuously flashes when the car is on. When I undo the D ring the windows go down but still no top operation. I now get a continuous beep for about 30 seconds (approx 70 beeps) when I drive away from a engine start if I manually move the roof from up to down or down to up. These are new developments. I swapped the CTC back and I get exactly the same things with the new or old CTC. When I close the roof manually and hit the up button the windows go up with either CTC but the light keeps flashing until I shut off the car.

While I have been poking around looking for a possible cut or frayed wire (none found) I cleaned all the connectors and made sure they are correctly secured. I was going to try to run power directly to the pump and see if the pump operated. Based on this info is there a next thing I should be looking into?

I appreciate any of your help with this stuff. It's been frustrating!

Jack

 

If you change the top module (and I never do, they do not go bad very often) you MUST re-sync the top.
To do this, start the engine and put the top UP and DOWN COMPLETELY, three times. The module will usually "get it" and you will have sync.
You MUST use the hex key tool and power top tool and COMPLETE THE CYCLE every time, or the sync may not work.
I go into painful detail here:


Thread moved to Roadster Forum - where you can find most of our tech threads on top issues.

 

Thanks for the quick reply!!! I've done the re-sync process. While I move the top up and down manually the switch on the console continuously flashes. No change. When I shut the car off the switch goes to solid light. Still no top operation! Ugh!!! I think a stick of dynamite might do the trick,,,,,,,,LOL!!!

 

I'm sure you checked the fluid level?

 

No leaks. Reservoir is full.

 

One of the issues here is that I no longer can spend hours here going into detail with people - my work life is too intense. But in this case, I see that my short answers don't work.
I cant give a lot of time away (you notice that Brian does not give time away.....) but here is some detailed analysis:

Lets look at your original post:

This indicates that the PTCM (POwer Top Control Module) got the signal from the latch Retainer switch and that it told the BCM to lower the windows. Sounds like the PTCM is fine, as well as the BCM and the CAN BUS between the two.

So the PTCM set the trunk lock, again, the PTCM is fine AND it thinks it's going to move the top - the PTCM's brain is fine.

First, the bot and tonneau switches are not of concern at this part of the cycle. Second, you did not perform a valid test, a valid test is to make sure that, when the divider is up (or the divider switch is jumpered) that Pin 7 of C1 on the PTCM is at ground (under .5 volt).
You "provided a solid ground" to WHAT? If you provided a solid ground directly to Pin 7 of C1, that would 'bypass' both the top open and divider switches, which would be a good test.

[quote]I've had Brian H. come out with his scanner and mention that there didn't seem to be a signal from the top control unit and that would be the next thing to check. [\quote]
But we've already established that the PTCM is fine. What "signal" are you expecting to see? (I DO NOT use any 'scanner' to diagnose top issues, if someone else does, fine.)
The PTCM has been proven at this point to be 'sane', it sensed the latch retainer switch's change of state, and it is capable of talking to the BCM AND setting the trunk lock.

So you suspected the PTCM but not the CLP/SSM? I dont see why you jumped to those two conclusions. The CLP/SSM performs a myriad of security and top/wing control functions, it is a poorly documented item in the system and has caused COUNTESS tops to refuse to move. Why do you insist is it OK, but you did not accept that the PTCM is ok? (Keep this in mind as you work on this problem..... ! )

I don't know what went on here. But when you change a PTCM, the first thing you must do is resync (or that's what you SHOULD do), if you don't do that, I can see where things could get confusing.

As to your "No water...." remark, I get that water damage to the CLP/SSM is often the cause of a top that won't move, or a wing that acts funny, or security issues (lights won't go out, etc.) and I get that you can usually find this by looking at connector pins on the CLP/SSM. But two things;
.... A lot of water damage is not easily seen.
... The CLP/SSM can fail electronically without water causing the failure.

"Running power to the pump directly" is not troubleshooting; don't bother.
I have several suggestions, you might reject one or two of them and I understand that -but you do so at your own peril.

1) Read thru my thread 'Convertible top sensors' in this forum. Learn as much as you can about how the system works.
2) Stop groping around without the technical documentation needed:

• A)Get the GOOD top service section of the manual here: https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...p-section.html
• B) Get the service manual here: https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...ollection.html
• You need BOTH.

3) Find a CLP/SSM and put it in and see what you have.
4) DO NOT get discouraged.
5) DO NOT get desperate and spend money paying people who do not do electronic troubleshooting for a living you can do this yourself as well as they can.

The top system is comprised of: The BCM, The PTCM, The CLP/SSM, five switches (two of which you have worked on), the electric trunk lock switches/solenoid, the trunk latch switch/assembly and four hall-effect sensors on the rear bow and main lift cylinder. ANY ITEM here can give you fits, but the most common are: Divider switch, top open switch, latch retainer switch, CLP/SSM. Of course, low fluid can also give you trouble.....

The top worked, it can and will work again.

 

Just so you know, I was in the automotive field for a long time and I would never expect anyone to work for free. I very much appreciate any input that makes sense and can steer me towards a fix. I'm going to get my hands on a CLP and swap that out. The way I figure, I have a PTCM for sale so I'm no worse off than before... .

 

I'll say it, Thanks pizza guy, I just got my roadster, and i;m lurking and learning every day.

 

Hi Forum,

Here is the latest on my Roadster top issue. I acquired a CLP/SSM and swapped it out. Exactly the same results. No top operation. I read the Service Manual and looked at the pin out info for the PTCM and CLP/SSM and I have this question. If I check each of the inputs at the PTCM by either manually operating the switch (or in the case of the trunk, opening and closing it) should it result in a change of voltage at the corresponding pin? Pin 11 shows as ground so that would be one side of the circuit. Am I on a good path here??

Again, thanks for your help and input. It will be rainy here in SW Florida for a few days so I'm diving in to this.......

 

Update on the inoperative convertible top on my 05 Roadster. With the help provided here I've been picking though what seems like 2 separate issues. Found the trunk lock circuit not operating properly so I acquired a trunk lock and replaced the bad one. The top now has no flashing lights with the car running. When I close or open the roof manually I am able to get a completed "beep" when I hold the switch down for a moment but it still will not operate either up or down. I'll keep working on each item in the sequence of events until I locate the culprit.
Question is will any other scanner read DTC's in the PTCM besides the DRB3?
Thanks again!!

 

My top repair showing issues with the rear hatch latch. https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...op-repair.html
I hope you have not thrown away with your bad latch. I had go through and repair mine. What was the issue with yours? Maybe your latch can be salvaged.

 

Thanks for the info. I've tested out the trunk lock and switch that tells the system the trunk is locked. Operating correctly. I'd like to find out if there is a test I can do on the hydraulic pump. Guess I'll pin out the circuit for solenoid #3 which I think is the 1st to be energized. Any info would be appreciated!!

 

If you are going to troubleshoot the top yourself, know that I put in a lot of effort to create this thread:
https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...p-sensors.html
If you do not understand how the system works, you will have a hard time determining the problem.


Also, always remember that all functions of the Central LOcking Pump/Security System Module (CLP/SSM) and Body Control Module (BCM) must be 'live' and working for the top to move. For example:

1) Fuse 9 or 13 (uses vary from submodel to submodel AND year to year) will disable the top; this fuse powers part of the BCM, without the BCM fully powered, the Power Top Control Module (PTCM) will not get what it wants from the BCM and will refuse to move the top.

2) The trunk might be LOCKED, but if the sensor in the latch does not show the trunk to be fully closed, the CLP/SSM will inhibit the PTCM from moving the top. (Yes, the trunk can LOCK even when it is not fully closed, or when it IS fully closed but that sensor does not indicate a "fully closed" trunk.)

3) A CLP/SSM that is impaired in ANY WAY will keep it from telling the PTCM that it can move the top.

Lesson #1: There are various systems in the car that must be working for the PTCM to move the top - many "top problems" are not problems with the top or PTCM at all. The BCM and CLP/SSM both provide "permission" for the PTCM to move the top . If this message is absent, the PTCM is not going to move the top.

 

Thanks for the info Pizza Guy. I've eliminated quite a few items on the list of things to check.
1) Divider Switch / Top Switch has been jumped.
2) Windows go down when unlatching D Ring ( PTCM and BCM are talking)
3) CLP/SSM has been replaced with a supposedly good unit.

I'm going to do more investigating in the trunk lock / trunk switch area but I keep thinking it might be a bad pump.

BTW, I've read your convertible top write up. That's some really impressive work my friend. I'll bet you've saved many Crossfire owners hours of diag work! Hats off!!!!

 

Another update on the mystery top issue. For review, one evening I had the top down and it stopped working. It would not go up or down. After reading many posts here I checked the voltage at Pin 7 C1 on the PTCM. The voltage went to ground when I undid the D ring. The windows go down when the D ring is released as well. That eliminates the divider switch, the Top Release switch and the top open switch from the issue. Windows going down also seems to eliminate the CLP and the BCM as they are communicating. I swapped out the CLP with a known good unit and also the PTCM as well. Still inop. I was able to acquire a complete trunk lock and removed the micro switch. First I tested the switch to make sure it opened and closed, then I unplugged the existing switch and plugged this one in both the open and closed positions. Still inop.
So in my diagnosis I believe I've eliminated the:
Top Switch in the header
Top Open Switch on the right side of the TOP
Trunk Divider Switch
CLP
PTCM
Trunk lock
BCM
Can Bus
If any of these presumptions are incorrect, please advise.

This morning the car threw me a new curve ball! I had the roof down manually and put it up manually (always with the engine running). The light on the dash switch started flashing quickly and for the first 30-45 seconds of driving the car beeped quickly, then stopped. When I slowed down to under the 9 mph limit I got a slow flashing light and a slow beep until I sped up, then every time I went under 9mph it beeped until I finished my trip and shut the car off. This entire time the light on the switch flashed while driving. When I got back in the car a little bit later and started it, no light on the switch and no beeps!! What the heck!
When I got home, I shut the car off and then restarted it and released the D ring. Windows went down. When I hit the top switch I could hear the trunk lock but the roof did not move and after about 2-3 seconds holding the switch down I got a slow steady beep and a slow flashing light.
I seem to have a moving target and it really frustrating. Any direction would be extremely appreciated.

Would my next course of action be the check the voltage at the solenoids at the hydraulic pump?

 

If it's changing sounds while you're changing speeds, that sounds like something to do with a speed sensor. There's one that won't let you raise the roof above 9 mph.
I may be wrong, but I've seen that somewhere on the forum.

 

A change of speeds would process thru the BCM or ECU. This is not the issue but thanks for the reply!

 

Another update on the mystery top issue. For review, one evening I had the top down and it stopped working. It would not go up or down. After reading many posts here I checked the voltage at Pin 7 C1 on the PTCM. The voltage went to ground when I undid the D ring. The windows go down when the D ring is released as well. That eliminates the divider switch, the Top Release switch and the top open switch from the issue. Windows going down also seems to eliminate the CLP and the BCM as they are communicating. I swapped out the CLP with a known good unit and also the PTCM as well. Still inop. I was able to acquire a complete trunk lock and removed the micro switch. First I tested the switch to make sure it opened and closed, then I unplugged the existing switch and plugged this one in both the open and closed positions. Still inop.
So in my diagnosis I believe I've eliminated the:
Top Switch in the header
Top Open Switch on the right side of the TOP
Trunk Divider Switch
CLP
PTCM
Trunk lock
BCM
Can Bus
If any of these presumptions are incorrect, please advise.

This morning the car threw me a new curve ball! I had the roof down manually and put it up manually (always with the engine running). The light on the dash switch started flashing quickly and for the first 30-45 seconds of driving the car beeped quickly, then stopped. When I slowed down to under the 9 mph limit I got a slow flashing light and a slow beep until I sped up, then every time I went under 9mph it beeped until I finished my trip and shut the car off. This entire time the light on the switch flashed while driving. When I got back in the car a little bit later and started it, no light on the switch and no beeps!! What the heck!
When I got home, I shut the car off and then restarted it and released the D ring. Windows went down. When I hit the top switch I could hear the trunk lock but the roof did not move and after about 2-3 seconds holding the switch down I got a slow steady beep and a slow flashing light.
I seem to have a moving target and it really frustrating. Any direction would be extremely appreciated.

Would my next course of action be the check the voltage at the solenoids at the hydraulic pump?

 

I know this is probably a dumb question but is the pump resevoir full?

 

System is full with no leaks. Thanks for the reply. There's a ghost in my car!!!