181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
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Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by waldig
Woah Dude halt and stop like. This is how I got my crankshaft BENT and were not playing. Took me 5 hours to straighten the 0.090" on the snout. YOu are in a dangerous area. I had the same thing and there is real danger ahead. I wrote and SPOKE to Jerry about this THEN and finally went ahead and cut the pulley shaft down 0.191" to get the belt in alignment.
I could not be more moved than if I were called out for making technical errors.
I will try to locate the photos to show my issue. You know that my pulley flew off partially due to over heating during autocross which causes severe NOSE - DIVES when the engine shut down, and thus my cooling quest(s). Iam now using the steel 178 ASP which is a welded up design now. We need to talk and understand this. Sorry for the issues and that I have what I THOUGHT WAS A UNIQUE problem.
W
O DY MY photos from a while ago.
I could not be more moved than if I were called out for making technical errors.
I will try to locate the photos to show my issue. You know that my pulley flew off partially due to over heating during autocross which causes severe NOSE - DIVES when the engine shut down, and thus my cooling quest(s). Iam now using the steel 178 ASP which is a welded up design now. We need to talk and understand this. Sorry for the issues and that I have what I THOUGHT WAS A UNIQUE problem.
W
O DY MY photos from a while ago.Randy
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Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by Moparrbust
It seems we might be in the same boat. I have a 185 pulley and noticed my belt "moving" a couple weeks ago and thought I was losing my mind. Then I looked carefully at all of the pulleys as the car was running(and I had removed the cooling fan for a better view). I noted that the serpentine belt was moving back and forth about 1mm each direction and also found that the belt was 1 rib off.........and hanging off of the back of the crank pulley. Then I came to the conclusion that the crank pulley was sticking out too far(farther than all other pulleys) and assumed it had somehow came loose. I then took my 650ft lbs torque 1/2'' impact and couldn't budge the bolt any tighter. I haven't told anybody about this issue yet as I figured it somehow had something to do with LET sending me the wrong replacement waterpump pulley(got one for an E55 V8 s/c) and didn't want to start throwing accusations. Here's some pics and a little video I made of my findings..........hopefully it's clear enough.
Note how the belt sticks out and hangs over the edge of the tensioner pulley............
Note how the belt sticks out and hangs over the edge of the tensioner pulley............
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From: Las Vegas
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by Bulldogger
The crank bolt may be fine you need to check the bolts on the pulley mounting it to the center hub, they might be loosening.
I didn't mention it but I did and do check/tighten them frequently.
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Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Kinda scary to think aftermarket companies put in such little effort to design products. They release products and endanger people's cars.
Anyways, the only reason I went with Code 3's s/c pulley over a crank pulley is because the crank pulley is the most specially designed part of every modern engine. It balances and dampens the entire internal engine and, in this case, can make or break the belt system. And as we see here - its a break!
Also, if a belt is hanging off a pulley then it is causing an angular pressure on the pulley and the bearing. Maybe this explains some of the tensioner pulley bearing issues.
I've been messing with some pulleys this week for a completely different reason, testing some ideas, but as soon as I saw the belt moved 1-2mm off a pulley I ran to the driver's side and shut the car off. Never drive with a belt hanging off!
Anyways, the only reason I went with Code 3's s/c pulley over a crank pulley is because the crank pulley is the most specially designed part of every modern engine. It balances and dampens the entire internal engine and, in this case, can make or break the belt system. And as we see here - its a break!
Also, if a belt is hanging off a pulley then it is causing an angular pressure on the pulley and the bearing. Maybe this explains some of the tensioner pulley bearing issues.
I've been messing with some pulleys this week for a completely different reason, testing some ideas, but as soon as I saw the belt moved 1-2mm off a pulley I ran to the driver's side and shut the car off. Never drive with a belt hanging off!
Last edited by ohnoesaz; Jan 10, 2009 at 07:56 PM.
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From: From North TX..To SoCAL..Now Cnt Philly
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
After having my 181 installed, several days later I began hearing a tick..tick..tick..tick sound. Brought the car back to the shop and found the belt had moved over one rib, leaving a truth mark on the belt. Reset the belt and there have been zero issues since.
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From: Los Angeles
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Sorry to hear of your hardware woes. Drove to work thinking about your nifty stacked pulley arrangement – and how maybe it’ll work on mine – only to return and learn of this major bollocks mucking up the works.
I’d respectfully suggest, as have the others, that you contact LET at once explaining your predicament.
Although their warranty ( http://letmotorsports.com/warranty.asp) expressly absolves them of any responsibility for faulty product or problems arising for those who’ve purchased their hardware/software, it’s incumbent upon you to at least make them aware of your situation. Granted, such exclusions and hold-harmless clauses are performance industry norm. However, perhaps they’ll step up and furnish a correctly-fitting pulley in this instance.
Some well-intentioned installation notes to make of what you will.
Published maximum permissible runout specification for the vibration damper is radial 0.5mm/axial 0.3mm. Its bolt is to be torqued to 200 Nm/147 ft-lbs, plus an additional 90 degrees. Installing a new woodruff key (N 006888 005005), seal (A 023 997 84 47), and bolt, aka “screw-vibration absorber to crankshaft” (A 006 990 70 04) while fitting a pulley is sound protocol and inexpensive insurance, IMHO. Part numbers and torque specifications furnished courtesy of Mercedes-Benz’s service literature. Additional documentation available upon request.
I’d respectfully suggest, as have the others, that you contact LET at once explaining your predicament.
Although their warranty ( http://letmotorsports.com/warranty.asp) expressly absolves them of any responsibility for faulty product or problems arising for those who’ve purchased their hardware/software, it’s incumbent upon you to at least make them aware of your situation. Granted, such exclusions and hold-harmless clauses are performance industry norm. However, perhaps they’ll step up and furnish a correctly-fitting pulley in this instance.
…I had to give mine a few more pumps from the high tq impact to sit right.
Published maximum permissible runout specification for the vibration damper is radial 0.5mm/axial 0.3mm. Its bolt is to be torqued to 200 Nm/147 ft-lbs, plus an additional 90 degrees. Installing a new woodruff key (N 006888 005005), seal (A 023 997 84 47), and bolt, aka “screw-vibration absorber to crankshaft” (A 006 990 70 04) while fitting a pulley is sound protocol and inexpensive insurance, IMHO. Part numbers and torque specifications furnished courtesy of Mercedes-Benz’s service literature. Additional documentation available upon request.
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From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Moparrbust, the picture you have of the idler pulley
Last edited by tighed1; Jun 16, 2009 at 06:28 PM.
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Got home and read this thread - - went out to the garage and check my belt - no issues to be seen. (knock-on-wood)
I think you should talk with LET first and see what they say. Perhaps they will atleast pay the machine shop to make the depth match the OEM pulley.
I think you should talk with LET first and see what they say. Perhaps they will atleast pay the machine shop to make the depth match the OEM pulley.
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From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by BrianBrave
Got home and read this thread - - went out to the garage and check my belt - no issues to be seen. (knock-on-wood)
I think you should talk with LET first and see what they say. Perhaps they will atleast pay the machine shop to make the depth match the OEM pulley.
I think you should talk with LET first and see what they say. Perhaps they will atleast pay the machine shop to make the depth match the OEM pulley.
They are a great bunch of folks (where have I heard that before???) I think I'll handle this and "let" them concentrate on our bearing issues for now.
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Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Considering the LET/C3 issues with the manifold disaster and lack of communication, I'm not sure you guys will hear much in response to this issue. If a company doesn't care to design a product right before people have even spent their money, then they won't have much care to fix the product later once people have already spent their money.
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Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Pictures as promised.
I'm hoping that once the CP is aligned properly that it will bring the belt back to its proper position on the remaining pulleys. Had no alignment problems with the stock pulley.
I'm hoping that once the CP is aligned properly that it will bring the belt back to its proper position on the remaining pulleys. Had no alignment problems with the stock pulley.
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From: VA
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
I will have to say that Iam concerned and getting a bit confused. There was one comment of the idler bearing noise and that rapidly became a flood of problems and outright failures.
Idler issues were not even on the horizion and presently if has bloomed until some of our brothers off the road waiting for parts and or solutitions. It is as if this is kind of mass hysteria or contagious part failures? What do we have here?
Thight1 mentioned his pulley/belt problem similar to the one that I posted early last year. Now we have massive ( my thoughts ) failures with crank pulleys and the belt alignment being reported. How can this be that the sliding belt problems have hit so many SRT's at once, or all of a sudden. Isnt it odd that belts are jumping ALL OF A SUDDEN. How wide spread is this problem?? And how is it possible that it just was noticed?
The comments to cut the pulleys to align the belts is a concern as it seems to be a potential custom ( ONE WAY ) fit for each car / pulley. Doesnt this seem strange that all of a sudden the pulley / belts are the "NEWEST PROBLEM"??
How would it be possible that the pulleys are differing in length. ALthough I had a 0.090" error and Thight1 noted about 0.088".
I suggest that each pulley problem be closely checked out to see what is really causing the alignment errors. Question: IF the pulley is removed, can you see one or more wear marks on the pulley snout, from the front shaft oil seal. THis would indicate a shifting of the pulley on the crankshaft and maybe a clue to the cause.
Montana suggested using a somewhat coarse approach to insure the pulley is seated. I can tell you from personal experience with my let 181 , asp 178 and stock pulley that they must be fitted FULLY on to the crank for alignment. MY ASP would not align correctly (seat) and I had to work to draw it into the crank with my impact wrench. This is after I had swapped the stock and let some 20 or more times during testing.....and straightning of the crank after the earlier failure.
To get to a position of understanding, Iam going to measure the factory stock pulley so that we can have a real number to work with. By comparing our collective measurments we can have some basis for real comparison. Ill include photos for clarity so that we are on the same page.
Woody Be Happy
MY issues from long ago, I thought . . .
Please note that the photos in the above post indicate that the pulley is sitting too far front (out ) from the engine.
Idler issues were not even on the horizion and presently if has bloomed until some of our brothers off the road waiting for parts and or solutitions. It is as if this is kind of mass hysteria or contagious part failures? What do we have here?
Thight1 mentioned his pulley/belt problem similar to the one that I posted early last year. Now we have massive ( my thoughts ) failures with crank pulleys and the belt alignment being reported. How can this be that the sliding belt problems have hit so many SRT's at once, or all of a sudden. Isnt it odd that belts are jumping ALL OF A SUDDEN. How wide spread is this problem?? And how is it possible that it just was noticed?
The comments to cut the pulleys to align the belts is a concern as it seems to be a potential custom ( ONE WAY ) fit for each car / pulley. Doesnt this seem strange that all of a sudden the pulley / belts are the "NEWEST PROBLEM"??
How would it be possible that the pulleys are differing in length. ALthough I had a 0.090" error and Thight1 noted about 0.088".
I suggest that each pulley problem be closely checked out to see what is really causing the alignment errors. Question: IF the pulley is removed, can you see one or more wear marks on the pulley snout, from the front shaft oil seal. THis would indicate a shifting of the pulley on the crankshaft and maybe a clue to the cause.
Montana suggested using a somewhat coarse approach to insure the pulley is seated. I can tell you from personal experience with my let 181 , asp 178 and stock pulley that they must be fitted FULLY on to the crank for alignment. MY ASP would not align correctly (seat) and I had to work to draw it into the crank with my impact wrench. This is after I had swapped the stock and let some 20 or more times during testing.....and straightning of the crank after the earlier failure.
To get to a position of understanding, Iam going to measure the factory stock pulley so that we can have a real number to work with. By comparing our collective measurments we can have some basis for real comparison. Ill include photos for clarity so that we are on the same page.
Woody Be Happy
MY issues from long ago, I thought . . .Please note that the photos in the above post indicate that the pulley is sitting too far front (out ) from the engine.
Last edited by waldig; Jan 11, 2009 at 07:43 AM.
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Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by ohnoesaz
Kinda scary to think aftermarket companies put in such little effort to design products. They release products and endanger people's cars.
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Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Guys - Not sure if there could be loose HEX bolts or something else causing the issue above, but all of the pulleys I have here line up EXACT with the stock pulley. This includes the V8 and V6 pulleys.
I have 3 old style hubs, and about 15 new style and everything matches.
If someone would send me one I would be happy to take a look at it.
I'll post up pictures later.
I have 3 old style hubs, and about 15 new style and everything matches.
If someone would send me one I would be happy to take a look at it.
I'll post up pictures later.
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Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Don't worry about sending me a unit.
I will see RADERMAN next week in Florida and will check his pulley locally.
I have measured 10 185 pulleys that were damaged during shipment and 3 181 pulleys that have been damaged and they all match my stock pulley exactly.
I'm having lunch with 2 forum members who both have these pulleys installed and we are going to check it against their stock pulley. One stock pulley is off an SRT6 and my pulley is from a C32.
I will have pictures, etc to post after lunch.
I will see RADERMAN next week in Florida and will check his pulley locally.
I have measured 10 185 pulleys that were damaged during shipment and 3 181 pulleys that have been damaged and they all match my stock pulley exactly.
I'm having lunch with 2 forum members who both have these pulleys installed and we are going to check it against their stock pulley. One stock pulley is off an SRT6 and my pulley is from a C32.
I will have pictures, etc to post after lunch.
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From: VA
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Iam just going out to test my "Home-made" tune, so I don't have time for more stuff just yet, but while under the car I came to the thought:
Could you guys loosen your belts and check the TENSIONER pulley by grasping it and seeing if it has a lot of tilt. That is does the pulley tilt in or out as you pry WITH YOUR HAND to see if the bearing race is loose and causing an axial angle error. THe above photos shows the tensioner circled in yellow and the pulley looks from what I can see, tilted which could contribute to this problem.
It just seems so wrong to me that you have to "cut" after so many have been installed and successful. I cant believe that the LET pulleys are all-over the map for fit and alignment. We need more data.........
Woody
Could you guys loosen your belts and check the TENSIONER pulley by grasping it and seeing if it has a lot of tilt. That is does the pulley tilt in or out as you pry WITH YOUR HAND to see if the bearing race is loose and causing an axial angle error. THe above photos shows the tensioner circled in yellow and the pulley looks from what I can see, tilted which could contribute to this problem.
It just seems so wrong to me that you have to "cut" after so many have been installed and successful. I cant believe that the LET pulleys are all-over the map for fit and alignment. We need more data.........
Woody
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From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Super! Looking forward to the results.
(GO CHARGERS!)
(GO CHARGERS!)
I will see RADERMAN next week in Florida and will check his pulley locally.
I have measured 10 185 pulleys that were damaged during shipment and 3 181 pulleys that have been damaged and they all match my stock pulley exactly.
I'm having lunch with 2 forum members who both have these pulleys installed and we are going to check it against their stock pulley. One stock pulley is off an SRT6 and my pulley is from a C32.
I will have pictures, etc to post after lunch.
(GO CHARGERS!)
(GO CHARGERS!)
Originally Posted by amg-jerry
Don't worry about sending me a unit.
Originally Posted by amg-jerry
I will see RADERMAN next week in Florida and will check his pulley locally.
I have measured 10 185 pulleys that were damaged during shipment and 3 181 pulleys that have been damaged and they all match my stock pulley exactly.
I'm having lunch with 2 forum members who both have these pulleys installed and we are going to check it against their stock pulley. One stock pulley is off an SRT6 and my pulley is from a C32.
I will have pictures, etc to post after lunch.
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From: VA
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
OK I think that I may have found the issue.
THe photo in Tighed1's response above shows the upper pulley in his photo. I cant figure how you copy it so Ill talk thru the issues.
THis upper idler belt can not be off due to the crank pulley. According to the factory manual ( SPLINTER could use some help here - how do I copy that drawing) The upper idler pulley is #8.
#8 gets its belt from the the alternator #7, the s/c idler #9 and the s/c #1 . THey can not be off due to the crank pulley.
Number #8 "upper" idler pulley feeds belt to the a/c and power steering pump # 2 and #4. The crank pulley is fed by #4 .
How is it that the belt in that photo is off unless the idler is cocked or loose in some manner?? It has three grooved pulleys before and 2 grooved pulleys after it. They insure the alignment.
Again I feel that the belt should be pulled and the pulleys be checked for "wink" play axially to the shaft.
Woody Be Happy
THe photo in Tighed1's response above shows the upper pulley in his photo. I cant figure how you copy it so Ill talk thru the issues.
THis upper idler belt can not be off due to the crank pulley. According to the factory manual ( SPLINTER could use some help here - how do I copy that drawing) The upper idler pulley is #8.
#8 gets its belt from the the alternator #7, the s/c idler #9 and the s/c #1 . THey can not be off due to the crank pulley.
Number #8 "upper" idler pulley feeds belt to the a/c and power steering pump # 2 and #4. The crank pulley is fed by #4 .
How is it that the belt in that photo is off unless the idler is cocked or loose in some manner?? It has three grooved pulleys before and 2 grooved pulleys after it. They insure the alignment.
Again I feel that the belt should be pulled and the pulleys be checked for "wink" play axially to the shaft.
Woody Be Happy
Last edited by waldig; Jan 11, 2009 at 12:41 PM.
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From: Plainfield, IL
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Here are pics of a 181 lined up against the stocky. All measurements are showing that the 181 is dead on.
I would say that woody is on the right track with his thoughts, as they possibility for the crank pully to walk like that without being corrected by one of the other accessories in the loop is slim... I have however seen that with a bad/lose guide pully or tensioner. I would suggest looking that those for play.
Remember guys, these pullies have been around quite some time in the c32 world before coming over to the crossfire boys, with the same design.
I would say that woody is on the right track with his thoughts, as they possibility for the crank pully to walk like that without being corrected by one of the other accessories in the loop is slim... I have however seen that with a bad/lose guide pully or tensioner. I would suggest looking that those for play.
Remember guys, these pullies have been around quite some time in the c32 world before coming over to the crossfire boys, with the same design.
