181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by waldig
OK I think that I may have found the issue.
THe photo in Tighed1's response above shows the upper pulley in his photo. I cant figure how you copy it so Ill talk thru the issues.
THis upper idler belt can not be off due to the crank pulley. According to the factory manual ( SPLINTER could use some help here - how do I copy that drawing) The upper idler pulley is #8.
#8 gets its belt from the the alternator #7, the s/c idler #9 and the s/c #1 . THey can not be off due to the crank pulley.
Number #8 "upper" idler pulley feeds belt to the a/c and power steering pump # 2 and #4. The crank pulley is fed by #4 .
How is it that the belt in that photo is off unless the idler is cocked or loose in some manner?? It has three grooved pulleys before and 2 grooved pulleys after it. They insure the alignment.
Again I feel that the belt should be pulled and the pulleys be checked for "wink" play axially to the shaft.
Woody Be Happy
THe photo in Tighed1's response above shows the upper pulley in his photo. I cant figure how you copy it so Ill talk thru the issues.
THis upper idler belt can not be off due to the crank pulley. According to the factory manual ( SPLINTER could use some help here - how do I copy that drawing) The upper idler pulley is #8.
#8 gets its belt from the the alternator #7, the s/c idler #9 and the s/c #1 . THey can not be off due to the crank pulley.
Number #8 "upper" idler pulley feeds belt to the a/c and power steering pump # 2 and #4. The crank pulley is fed by #4 .
How is it that the belt in that photo is off unless the idler is cocked or loose in some manner?? It has three grooved pulleys before and 2 grooved pulleys after it. They insure the alignment.
Again I feel that the belt should be pulled and the pulleys be checked for "wink" play axially to the shaft.
Woody Be Happy
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From: Elburn, IL
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by onehundred80
The top may be lined up but the grooves do not look in line, at least in the photo and it is the grooves that count.
If the crank pulley was the cause, the a/c compressor and p/s pump would be affected as well. Looking at the picture, they line up just fine.
Last edited by ImportLabSRT; Jan 11, 2009 at 04:34 PM.
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From: Plainfield, IL
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by ImportLabSRT
Seems to me that there is another problem other then or in addition to the crank pulley.
If the crank pulley was the cause, the a/c compressor and p/s pump would be affected as well. Looking at the picture, they line up just fine.
If the crank pulley was the cause, the a/c compressor and p/s pump would be affected as well. Looking at the picture, they line up just fine.
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From: Elburn, IL
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by onehundred80
My humble thoughts, always offered, sometimes ignored. Take your pick.
Looking at tighed1's photos the error appears to be about .140" (the pitch between the ribs) with this much error then the stresses on the belt will not be equal across its width which I guesstimate at 8 x .140" = 1.12". Maybe someone will let me know how much this figure wrong, I would like to know. Standard pitch is .140, hence my 1.12" figure.
This stress will go all around the belt as the belt is being stretched on the front face and compressed on the rear face at the crank pulley. This will lead to the belt being pulled back into alignment at the various grooved pulleys, while at the plain pulleys the tension will be eased by the belt pulling back into a less stressed state. Pulled and pushed the belt will start`Hunting'. This phenomena I believe can be seen in the first movie clip in this thread with the belt moving forward and backward.
`Hunting' in the old days of flat machine belts was used to keep the belt on the pulley by crowning the pulley, the belt had equal stress each side of the belt when it stayed on the center of the crown. Move the belt too much of center and the belt slipped off.
Looking at tighed1's photos the error appears to be about .140" (the pitch between the ribs) with this much error then the stresses on the belt will not be equal across its width which I guesstimate at 8 x .140" = 1.12". Maybe someone will let me know how much this figure wrong, I would like to know. Standard pitch is .140, hence my 1.12" figure.
This stress will go all around the belt as the belt is being stretched on the front face and compressed on the rear face at the crank pulley. This will lead to the belt being pulled back into alignment at the various grooved pulleys, while at the plain pulleys the tension will be eased by the belt pulling back into a less stressed state. Pulled and pushed the belt will start`Hunting'. This phenomena I believe can be seen in the first movie clip in this thread with the belt moving forward and backward.
`Hunting' in the old days of flat machine belts was used to keep the belt on the pulley by crowning the pulley, the belt had equal stress each side of the belt when it stayed on the center of the crown. Move the belt too much of center and the belt slipped off.
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From: INDIANA
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by mrphotoman
Do you think they gave you a pulley for a different car? That is crazy all the pulley problems going on around here.
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From: AZ
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
I would have to guess your idler pulley is the same as in the ASP 178 kit. So far only one has failed and it was rusted to heck. We don't get rust like that here in AZ, so I just check mine every few months. Also with the 178 kit the bearing is spinning within specs.
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From: Ontario
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
edited, too long.
Last edited by onehundred80; Jan 15, 2009 at 10:07 PM. Reason: 1tem 2 connected to exclusion and heat damage added
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From: Las Vegas
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
I pulled my belt off tonight and checked the pulleys. I found that three pullies have minimal play in them.............waterpump pulley, tensioner and the s/c pulley. Of the three the s/c pulley has the most play and the other two are VERY minimal. The worst thing I've found is that my crank pulley is sticking out about one belt rib too far when comparing it to the tensioner. I tightened all the 1/4'' allen bolts holding the crank pulley together and tried tightening the crank bolt further with my 1/2'' impact to no avail. I have since pulled out the crank bolt and attempted to remove the pulley by hand(since it slit into place that way) but it doesn't want to budge so far. I will try giving it a little persuasion tomorrow to get it off to compare to my stock pulley.
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From: VA
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
I have gotten pulleys off by loosening the main bolt 2 turns or so and threading a steering wheel puller into 2 of the allen head cap screw "threaded holes". You need longer bolts to do this but the puller pushes on the center bolt and does not damage the crank threads. Just a thought, Woody
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From: Las Vegas
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by waldig
I have gotten pulleys off by loosening the main bolt 2 turns or so and threading a steering wheel puller into 2 of the allen head cap screw "threaded holes". You need longer bolts to do this but the puller pushes on the center bolt and does not damage the crank threads. Just a thought, Woody
Yeah, I've got a crank puller lying around somewhere...........I'm just to lazy to find it and remove the pulley tonight.
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From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by onehundred80
I thought I had covered most of these points in post #50, did you read it or did you come to similar conclusions separately?
Originally Posted by onehundred80
Some of your points are incorrect though and could not happen as you state without a lot of belt damage. Hint, ribs are not near to .088 wide.
A post after my #50 has proved what I said about ignoring idler problems, which was raised by another claiming to have solved the problem.
I base my ideas on years of background in engineering and a detachment from the problem, I am not some old f**t flapping his gums as some on this site are prone to do.
I wrote about the bearing problems earlier and I was pooh poohed by someone who was going to solve the problem even when I said he was completely wrong, what became of that solution .... ZIP
Last edited by tighed1; Jun 16, 2009 at 06:30 PM.
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From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Re: 181 pulley responsible for belt rib cutting problem
Originally Posted by hawksview
does the 181 run the stock belt like we do with the 178?
Yes but you must run with the smaller upper idler pulley provided.
A longer belt is needed if you want to run the stock upper idler pulley.