I bought my Crossfire from South County Dodge in Gilroy CA in Dec 03 and had a very nice experience. This is the 3rd car I've bought from them and from the fleet manager. He gave me a good deal, not rock bottom and not MSRP. It was fast , no pressure and I'd buy from him again. My service from the dealer has always been fine.

 

Reg, I didn't in any way find your comments harsh. There is sufficient profit selling a vehicle at MSRP. As far as dealers gouging...I am against that. I know some dealers choose to do that, but in the long run, all it does is hurt them. Because like you said, once you hear of a dealer gouging on the price of a vehicle...it just leaves a sour taste in your mouth. In all reality, if you really want to see what your are paying for a vehicle, ask to see a copy of the invoice. Most dealers will gladly show you the invoice. That way you know exactly what you are paying.

pk

 

I think this gets back to my idea of selling cars at sticker price and only have to deal on the trade in value. It would make the dealers' stigma of being liars and cheats go away.

Isn't that how Saturn dealers work? How do they make that work?

When I bought my car, I knew it was a low production vehicle, and brand new to the market. I knew going in that negotiations were going to be limited. They had the car marked up $3K over sticker, with the reason given, and I swear this is the truth, "They are getting this amount in Cleveland". I laughed, and said "This isn't Cleveland, now do you want to sell this car or not?"

The sales manager overheard me, and came over and ripped the paper with the extra markup off the windshield.

To me, this was a stupid and unnecessary sales tactic. You start to wonder if they like having people angry when they are willing to spend $35K?

I still believe in the win-win form of sales. Both sides have to be happy, or the deal is not going to work long term, and if you even want to consider repeat sales to the customer. I just think it is crazy to have your newest customers driving out of your place of business with that funny feeling in their stomachs that they have been cheated on the price....

And to answer the percentage question posed by pk, in my opinion, a 10% net profit is a fair return in a mature market like car sales.

 

The dealer I bought my car sells only at MSRP or below. All of their cars. No exceptions. They had a Crossfire within the first 2 weeks of them coming out, and sold it for MSRP. A dealer down the street wasn't even accepting offers for less than 8k over. They are a very small dealership, though they do sell a lot of cars. There are only 2 salesman. This allows them to offer customers really good pricing, and allows the salesman to make a good living. Their service area is also very good. Definitely the best Chrysler dealer I've ever personally witnessed. Welsh Motors in Far Hills NJ.

 

jsisabela,
I wish more people thought like you...if I made 10 percent I'd be a very happy person. As far as Saturn...that is how the function...but they are the only one, and they are running into trouble now. I'm not sure if you've heard...but they no longer have their own union agreements or anything...they are much more closely monitored by the mother ship, GM. Saturns are also unique...they are cheaper cars, yet they have no resale value. Saturn for the most part is actually out of leasing because of this. Their buyers want payment...they don't care what the car actually costs.

Also, something about Detroit that is MUCH different than many parts of the country. Leasing accounts for approx. 85 percent of total business at my dealership...I still can't figure out how people get the idea in their head that a 35k car should be more then 300/month...but oh well.

Until tomorrow...

 

Hmmm, 35k car shouldn't be more than 300/month? How many months are you thinking of paying for the car? 10 years?

Even if you are leasing a 35k car, after taxes, gap insurance, paying for 3 years of the value of the car, amortized over say 5-7 years, you're still paying about 15-21k. Throw in interest, you're still looking at more than 300 a month for 36 months.

For me, MSRP is the limit (with some exceptions), I'll take any discount of deals they are willing to give me but MSRP is what I'll be planning to pay if I like the car, anything less is welcomed and a bonus.

 

Mouserider,
It's good to see some people know what's going on...I hope people keep reading your responses.

pk

 

I think normally a fair price is 500 - 1000 over invoice unless the dealership has no add ons. Although if a car is HOT like the Crossfire then 500 under MSRP is acceptable. Where I bought my Crossfire (in July) there were dealer fees of over 500 so I wouldn't have bought until I could get a price 1000 under MSRP which I got so I bought

 

Despite what evidence I might have given to the contrary, if I'm treated right I'm the biggest sucker there is when it comes to buying vehicles. An ideal salesman/dealer, to my mind, would be one that�c

a) Knew the product. Silicone Valley is stocked with hundreds of car salesman who can only say "How much do you want to pay each month?" Actually getting knowledgeable answers�particularly of a technical nature�is difficult.

b) Show me a valid invoice, and tell what they need to clear on the deal.

c) Prohibited their salespeople from "jayhawking." That is, as you drive onto the lot, you see a group of sales type, usually 4 or 5 all clustered around their cigarettes. Once they spot you, a brief conversation follows ( I imagine a triage process to qualify me, or not, as a buyer) after which one descends and asks the above question.

d) Showed me a neat, efficient-looking service area.

e) Explain to me why I should buy there.

f) Is aware of incentives and recalls. My (I use the term advisedly) salesman did not know of a $2,500 rebate, and was clueless about the luggage.

g) Deal honestly with my trade. I normally don't trade in anything, but would prefer to because I'm lazy. Generally, the low-ball offer falls into the ridiculous range. I, like most, traffic the Edmunds, etc. sites and have a good idea of my trade's worth.

h) Stop cramming that damn survey down my throat! I will answer the questions as I see fit and, yes, I know how important it is to the dealer. I had a Nissan dealer offer free car washes and oil changes for the year if I would let him answer the questions.

And here's the biggie: Don't TO me to the sales manager or some other such person. If the initial person I deal with can't make the deal; I walk. And BTW: I use the 1-hour rule. If we haven't come to an agreement within 60 minutes: I walk. This has mightily pissed off a number of salesmen over the years, but it is the most successful tool in my negotiation box. At times, I have lost cars I've really wanted but, overall, it's worked.

I don't believe any of the above is unreasonable. if those things happen, I'm usually a laydown.

 

You give the process alot more time than I ever would. I give it 15 minutes.

The "first" person you come into contact with is the salesperson. They could not approve a deal if they wanted to, that is unless it was obviously to their advantage and then they still run to the back room for approval.

I do my research on a new car, I know the value of my trade-in (if I have one) and I know what my credit report says. I have an offer already prepared in writting which includes what intrest rate I want.

As the salesman approaches me, I smile, shake hands and ask him to take me straight to the manager. :twisted: I am usually asked to sit down first and give them some information... nope, I want to go straight to the top and make a one time offer. If my offer isn't accepted, then they don't need to know anything about me. I want to know within 15 minutes if my offer will be accepted. If not I walk. I don't want to waste my time nor theirs.

Before anyone slams me... understand that I present a "fair" offer, between invoice and MSRP plus any discounts that are avalible. I refuse to play the back and forth cat and mouse game, sorry. If other people enjoy it fine, but most of them get taken advantage of one way or another and do not get a fair deal when buying a vehicle.

When I bought my Xfire, the first dealer lost the deal because we were $400 apart. The next day I went to a different dealer and got the car for $900 less than the first dealer's lowest counter offer.

For too many years I was too stupid to know any better and was always on the losing side of the deal... not anymore.

Happy motoring...

 

I know about that stupid part, AZ! Cost me plenty over the years.

 

For all the people that have posted comments on this issue, or are intrigued by it, there is an excellent article in the FEb. 2004 Reader's Digest concerning this very topic.

 

Here's another good article about the inner workings of a car dealership:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...ice.buying.4.*

 

I've worked at a stand alone chrysler car dealership now for about 6 months. What I think everyone seems to forget is that the salesman who is selling you the car has a family and his own life to pay for. To those people who think that a car salesman is a snake in the grass and is trying to screw ever guy that walks in the door they are wrong. Cars salesman are just like everyone else in the world they are trying to make a living. As a car salesman I make .50 cents an hour in case anyone is wondering. And the only way I can make more than that is to sell the customer a car at over the invoice price of the car. I dont see any extra money that chrysler gives the dealership, I dont see extra money for working over time. The only way I put money in my pocket and my families pocket is by selling a car and making profit. So I guess what I am trying to get at is that car people are just trying to make a buck like everyone else.

 

DoverChrysler�c
Making a living is one thing. Making a living at the expensive of other people is quite another. A quid pro quo dealing is honorable. However, for a salesman to use every ruse in the book just "to make a living" is not.

 

Well said!!!

 

Dover, please don't take this personally, because I don't know you and how you try to sell cars.

The problem is that in most cases, the salesman does not know the product, the available options, and the pricing, and it shows.

Here is how I think it should work:

1. Know your product. My salesman had no idea what the cup holder was or how to adjust the outside mirrors of a Crossfire. This is part of your job, and there is no excuse for this lax attitude.

2. If I have decided on a car that is on the lot, as soon as we have finished the test drive, you should receive the price that the dealer says is what he needs to close the sale, including your commission. You have to have that information, or your business will not last very long. Stop the silly back and forth to the "Manager's Office". It makes you look silly and just plain stupid. You are not fighting for me, and we know it. As you said, you are there to make a living for yourself. Why do you think so many people want to by-pass you and go directly to the manager?

3. The process takes entirely too long, and you usually have very uncomfortable seats in your little cubicle. If you simply came in to the room and said, here is the sticker price, here is the very best price we can quote to you today, and here are the manufacturer incentives. That should take just a few minutes. Then the only real dealing would be on the trade-in value. Then we should sign off, and leave the delaership while you prepare the vehicle and all the paperwork. I could never imagine my customers sitting around while I print out contracts and sales agreements. Give me a time when it is all ready, and I will come back, sign my name 50 times, and leave happy with my new car! And you might actually get some referrals from me, instead of you begging me to fill out the questionaire with all "superior" checks in the blocks!!!!

In my opinion, car dealerships brought this on themselves. They are still using sales techniques from the 1950's. Wake up! It is the 21st century, so start acting like it.

 

I agree with Jsisabella- but here is how it can work. I plan on using this information this summer when I purchase a Crossfire...

http://www.carbuyingtips.com/

 

So true. When I was buying my Crossfire, I was kicking around the idea of trading in my 300m. The salesman takes a look at it and says, "This has a V-8, right?" I felt like saying, "You stupid idiot, you have these for sale on your lot, and they've always had a V-6." But I didn't, I just said "No, it's got a V-6" and reinforced my belief that I should never feel sorry for a starving salesman who doesn't even bother to get to know the specs and features of the stuff he is selling. In any field, not just cars.

 

This lack of product knowledge is the most irritating aspect of dealing with salespeople. Domestic dealers need to realize that there is a group of buyers that fall into the "gearhear" category. We know cars, have read Autoweek, C&D, R&T, Automobile, et al. Here's the vexing part�c we are also suckers when we meet someone that talks our language; we'll pay your price (unless it's really insulting, e.g. MSRP++). At the same time when I meet the usual member of the gang of idiots I am unmerciful. I guess it's kind of a "don't mess with my passion" sort of thing.

I mention "domestic dealer" because I usually don't find this ignorance�or at least to the same degree� at outlets for foreign makes. And I have never found this at Porsche/Audi/Benz dealers. Obviously it's because they are selling performance cars. Whereas, a dealership that earns its living to selling Tauri, Sebrings, or Impalas knows that the bulk of their customers are more interested in F&I, and extended warranties and could care less about motive power, tires, etc.

The bottom line here is that if Chrysler dealers, for example, are going to continue to sell performance automobiles, they had better start hiring performsance salespeople. The SRT-6 is on my radar (in its second year) but I will be damned before I will but it from my local dealer.