New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
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From: Derby, KS
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
So here’s what I’m thinking, using the ideal gas law we can find out if an aftermarket intake is actually more effective than stock.
Ideal Gas Law states: PV=nRT
Pressure = MAF reading
Volume= whatever constant you want, I’m thinking the throttle body is what we want to solve for, since we want to know how much air is going into the engine.
N= moles of air, MAF reading will give you grams/sec of air passing through
R= pressure constant 0.08206 L·atm·mol−1·K−1
T= Intake temp, reading given through Torque Pro as well.
My thought is, just because the IAT is lower, it does not mean the intake is more effective than stock, because the engine could be getting less air. And using this formula can help formulate a proper answer to this long debate between stock , HAI, and CAI.
Ideal Gas Law states: PV=nRT
Pressure = MAF reading
Volume= whatever constant you want, I’m thinking the throttle body is what we want to solve for, since we want to know how much air is going into the engine.
N= moles of air, MAF reading will give you grams/sec of air passing through
R= pressure constant 0.08206 L·atm·mol−1·K−1
T= Intake temp, reading given through Torque Pro as well.
My thought is, just because the IAT is lower, it does not mean the intake is more effective than stock, because the engine could be getting less air. And using this formula can help formulate a proper answer to this long debate between stock , HAI, and CAI.
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From: Kellyville, Ok
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Correct me if I'm wrong here..
But a higher flow should be seen at a specific RPM "if" this is more efficient .. correct?
x volume per cylinder restricted (oem)
x volume per cylinder free flow (tube and cone filter)
Sorry if I seem slightly "ignorant" in this stuff.. Cad drafting and sheetmetal is my thing.. LOL.
68 Chevy 327 CID (transplated from a '66 mated to a turbo 350 with shift kit) was my last and only real interest in mods before now.. car was 11 years old if that gives you a clue..
But a higher flow should be seen at a specific RPM "if" this is more efficient .. correct?
x volume per cylinder restricted (oem)
x volume per cylinder free flow (tube and cone filter)
Sorry if I seem slightly "ignorant" in this stuff.. Cad drafting and sheetmetal is my thing.. LOL.
68 Chevy 327 CID (transplated from a '66 mated to a turbo 350 with shift kit) was my last and only real interest in mods before now.. car was 11 years old if that gives you a clue..
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From: Derby, KS
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Correct me if I'm wrong here..
But a higher flow should be seen at a specific RPM "if" this is more efficient .. correct?
x volume per cylinder restricted (oem)
x volume per cylinder free flow (tube and cone filter)
Sorry if I seem slightly "ignorant" in this stuff.. Cad drafting and sheetmetal is my thing.. LOL.
68 Chevy 327 CID (transplated from a '66 mated to a turbo 350 with shift kit) was my last and only real interest in mods before now.. car was 11 years old if that gives you a clue..
But a higher flow should be seen at a specific RPM "if" this is more efficient .. correct?
x volume per cylinder restricted (oem)
x volume per cylinder free flow (tube and cone filter)
Sorry if I seem slightly "ignorant" in this stuff.. Cad drafting and sheetmetal is my thing.. LOL.
68 Chevy 327 CID (transplated from a '66 mated to a turbo 350 with shift kit) was my last and only real interest in mods before now.. car was 11 years old if that gives you a clue..
Yes, a higher flow should be seen with the free flow setup. But like with the DCAI that needswings has it's complete overkill. So it would be nice to know the exact limit of the engine in terms of intake.
For the sake of consistencey for the experiment I think these experiments should all be done at idle and 55 mph (in the same gear).
The logging system for torque pro will plot all the info that we need for this experiment. If you log on to the site that the data gets uploaded to it will graph everything for you pretty nicely.
Last edited by Selbyl; Feb 20, 2013 at 01:18 AM. Reason: Forgot to answer question
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From: Derby, KS
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Oh I've misunderstood I thought you were running a filter on the other side of the radiator and connecting the pipe to the engine cover to save costs.
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From: Kellyville, Ok
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Nope.. just not a fan of shoving them out there with a grill to keep any water out of them. Unless someone drives into heavy rain.. misty rain ect and then can wrap them in a paper towel and show they are totally dry..
I'm good tucked away..
And actually.. I like the OEM cover..
I'm good tucked away..
And actually.. I like the OEM cover..
Last edited by Mrmiata; Feb 20, 2013 at 07:47 AM.
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From: Littleton, MA
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Is that behind the grill or is it too far over to get the air flow from the front? You could maybe make up some devil horns to channel some more air to it?
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From: Derby, KS
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Fair enough. I'm going to see if I can make a pipe cheaply. I went to a muffler shop and they wanted $225 for just one pipe from the throttle body to the grill.
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From: MOFN, AL, 70 miles from George
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Pull those tubes off your engine cover and out of the radiator support and look at the size of the opening.. then compare that to just 1 3" dia tube. Which Needswing claims as ample for the NA.
Wife is working on taking time.. temp..cfm and rpm into a graph chart for me from the torque logs. I've got several from oem setup with and K&N filters to compare.. and then a few since HAI setup (one tube and cone filter..oem still on passenger side).. Just today road trip home..34 miles..turnpike backed up stop and go.. ambient temp 55 .. end of contruction temps showing 104. Qickly cooled down within 20 degs of ambient.. 10 miles to the house left.. within 10 degrees of ambient the last 3 miles home.
I will say Max was testing at 92 degrees at the time and obviously my testing temps are lower, so I can only surmize the cooler air is going to cool the intake faster, so I do expect the numbers not to be as fast changing. Come summer it may be a different story, but based on what I'm seeing between OEM and this.. gotta think this is going to be better.
Wife is working on taking time.. temp..cfm and rpm into a graph chart for me from the torque logs. I've got several from oem setup with and K&N filters to compare.. and then a few since HAI setup (one tube and cone filter..oem still on passenger side).. Just today road trip home..34 miles..turnpike backed up stop and go.. ambient temp 55 .. end of contruction temps showing 104. Qickly cooled down within 20 degs of ambient.. 10 miles to the house left.. within 10 degrees of ambient the last 3 miles home.
I will say Max was testing at 92 degrees at the time and obviously my testing temps are lower, so I can only surmize the cooler air is going to cool the intake faster, so I do expect the numbers not to be as fast changing. Come summer it may be a different story, but based on what I'm seeing between OEM and this.. gotta think this is going to be better.
Have you taken any measurements of UHT's at that ambient (~55-60)? I never did. It would be interesting to see the correlation...just sayin'
Last edited by maxcichon; Feb 20, 2013 at 07:56 AM.
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From: Kellyville, Ok
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Needswing run any closer than 10 degrees ambient?
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From: Kellyville, Ok
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
And Max I'm not off on some fantasy quest. Don't have a problem conceeding I wasted 50 bucks if the temps reflect that..
But I'm just not seeing it after a month of watching them pretty much daily with the oem setup.
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From: MOFN, AL, 70 miles from George
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Guys,
this has been done to death. At the time I made these measurements, only a few folks had home-made any CAI's and many were running HAI's exactly like MrMiata's and I just wanted to share my experiment and the way I went when I made mine. As I stated earlier-I first had exactly the same setup as MM's after I first installed K&N's in the OEM. I didn't buy the K&N's just for the experiment!
My present system is dual only because I had the $$ and it looks cool.
As for using the folmulae presented by our friend from Guam, that's just fine, but the only (IMHO) way to get a true comparison is the way K&N and other manufacturers (like Eurocharged) do:
put it on a flow table.
K&N Airflow Testing Procedure
this has been done to death. At the time I made these measurements, only a few folks had home-made any CAI's and many were running HAI's exactly like MrMiata's and I just wanted to share my experiment and the way I went when I made mine. As I stated earlier-I first had exactly the same setup as MM's after I first installed K&N's in the OEM. I didn't buy the K&N's just for the experiment!
My present system is dual only because I had the $$ and it looks cool.
As for using the folmulae presented by our friend from Guam, that's just fine, but the only (IMHO) way to get a true comparison is the way K&N and other manufacturers (like Eurocharged) do:
put it on a flow table.
K&N Airflow Testing Procedure
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From: MOFN, AL, 70 miles from George
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
MM, I really think the difference in underhood vs. IAT increase in a linear fashion as ambient goes up If you look at my (!) chart, the HAI has the worst performance of the 3. It's (as you suspect) the big wad of plastic and its heatsoak issues that are the true issue.
The other issue is the torturous path the air must make on its way through that big wad of plastic. I painted mine pretty nice. Alaxfire has it hanging as art nowadays!
The other issue is the torturous path the air must make on its way through that big wad of plastic. I painted mine pretty nice. Alaxfire has it hanging as art nowadays!
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From: Kellyville, Ok
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Yeah Max I know you guys have already beat this horse into a hamburger patty..
Not going to say I won't be back to stock come 100 degree days if temps start soaring.
May be like tires.. winter summer setup.. LOL
Not going to say I won't be back to stock come 100 degree days if temps start soaring.
May be like tires.. winter summer setup.. LOL
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From: MOFN, AL, 70 miles from George
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Bud, as I see it, it's the rise or change in temperature that we are trying to minimize. From 50 F to 100 F is 50 degree rise. form 92 F to 108 F is 16 degree rise.
See?
See?
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From: Kellyville, Ok
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Or are we looking at something like this.. daily commute "averaged" at 20-25 degrees over ambient with stock.
Heat soak was almost impossible to compensate with continuous speed
Daily commute now "averaged" at 10-15 over stock.
And anything resembling "heat soak" is fairly quickly dissipated ..
Mission accomplished.
I'm not trying to convert anyone to a priest here.. just calling them as they show up on Torque..
Has any "long range" testing actually been done? Or more like 30 minutes.. sensors and probes say.. end of story?
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From: MOFN, AL, 70 miles from George
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
No lessons intended, just wondering if our testing is flawed due to the great difference in ambient. The IAT sensor in the N/A is in the MAF (unlike my Honda-waaaay at the end of the intake mani) and is a good indicator of thermal increase just from the piping/plenum/method of getting the air from outside to inside.
Since I no longer own an OEM box, I can't help here. BUT, I would be interested in seeing your observations once the weather gets hot again.
Alaxfire says he sees 105 cruising and I agree with that, but at what ambient? This is the true indicator, as I see it, of how efficiently, in terms of heat uptake an intake system is, apart and separate from flow.
That's a whole different discussion...
Since I no longer own an OEM box, I can't help here. BUT, I would be interested in seeing your observations once the weather gets hot again.
Alaxfire says he sees 105 cruising and I agree with that, but at what ambient? This is the true indicator, as I see it, of how efficiently, in terms of heat uptake an intake system is, apart and separate from flow.
That's a whole different discussion...
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From: Kellyville, Ok
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
Okay I'm with you now..
I'll probably hang on to my K&N filters just for that purpose.. when it gets warm again it won't take anything to switch back out and see what kind of difference there is at that point.
I'll have to spend some time reviewing the log files to see if CFM has changed any, I'm thinking it should have if I'm now less restricted, but if not at least for now my temps are better so I'm good with what I've got.
With thermal transfer to the sensor from the housing I don't see it getting better than the +10 deg. I've been getting.
I'll probably hang on to my K&N filters just for that purpose.. when it gets warm again it won't take anything to switch back out and see what kind of difference there is at that point.
I'll have to spend some time reviewing the log files to see if CFM has changed any, I'm thinking it should have if I'm now less restricted, but if not at least for now my temps are better so I'm good with what I've got.
With thermal transfer to the sensor from the housing I don't see it getting better than the +10 deg. I've been getting.
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From: Akron, Ohio
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
NeedsWings single CAI, plus........
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Last edited by +fireamx; Feb 20, 2013 at 07:52 PM.
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From: MOFN, AL, 70 miles from George
Re: New Longhorn Unrestricted DCAI
NeedsWings single CAI, plus........
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Thermo-Tec Exhaust Wrap Blankets - SummitRacing.com
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