This tells me you've never ran into a busy Tokyo street screaming "Gojira"

 

I'd like some psychiatrist to explain to my why BOTH sides think the OTHER side is in control. Because I hear this from BOTH sides.


What makes you so sure? Even among the most prominent physicists, 7 percent or so believe in a personal God.

Additionally, Islam is going BACKWARD, it has been since the beginning of the 12th century when one of their premier clerics declared that manipulation of numbers was "the work of the devil". Show me any contribution Islamic scholars have made since the 12 century - there are almost none. And THIS from a culture that, in the 300 years before, brought us Algebra, Geometry and the foundations of Chemistry. You cannot predict with such certainly what the human condition will produce.

 

Funny how so many self described atheist in times of crisis like being in prison or in a fox hole being shot at and watching your buddies get blown to pieces seem to suddenly discover God.
The bottom line is you believe or you do not. Some questions asked here simply cannot be answered for example who made God.
These things are so far past our capability to understand it is like trying to talk on an adult level to a 2 year old. The 2 year old cannot understand that he is not developed enough to understand what is being said to him.
This debate is as old as history itself and cannot be answered here it can only be batted back and forth and then someone will get insulting or nasty or get their feelings hurt.
My self I do have faith. Someone who does not cannot understand this kind of faith. I have experienced a miracle in my youth that science and medicine could not explain. I have saved human lives while putting my life in danger. I have had my own life saved by others.
In the end I think that living a moral and for lack of a better term a Christian life is not a bad way to live. I have lost nothing by believing in God. I have however gained much like peace of mind. I am not afraid to die or live and I have gained a solid loving heart as well as a guiding light throughout my short life here.
In the end even those who reject God now in life will have the chance one more time after their human death when they are before God to accept or reject Gods love. If I turn out to be wrong then I can say that for one I will never know it and secondly the way I lived my life was not a bad way to live.
That's my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of this channel or it's sponsors

 

Since there is no way of factually knowing whether or not there is a divine creator many scientifically minded people straddle a fence of belief. That would explain the 7% you reference.

As far as the USA losing religious adherents.....statistics formed by polling with a small margin of error. As of today Americans identify themselves as believing in some form of divinity about 67%. When broken down about 80% of those cite christianity as their religion. This is down from 90% or higher 3 decades ago. Western Europe today hovers around 40% believers. The Scandinavian countries clock in even lower in belief, 10-20% last time I checked. Simple math shows that within the USA the 67% if diminishing at the same rate it has for the last fifty years would put the belief rate under 50% in fifty years.

For those that have faith and believe, I hope you are vindicated in your beliefs when you die or rocket toward the heavens during the rapture. The thought of a nirvana where you get back together with loved ones in a beautiful, tranquil, all loving society is truly worthy of worship.

I don't have the faith or belief anymore and will never gain it back unless there is at least some small scintilla of evidence to support it. I won't even take voices in my head as proof unless todays modern drugs can't make them go away.

Someone mentioned a personal miracle, can anyone tell a story of a personal miracle that cannot be explained by science? If so, does this miracle have any unbiased researchable evidence to support its existence? I would like to hear these stories.

 

Ahhh but you miss the entire point of faith. If you have evidence then it is not faith. Anyone can believe with evidence. Faith is believing in the word and the holy spirit without this absolute evidence. That's the entire point of faith! I have all the evidence I need in my heart and in my soul.
Via con dios my friend!
As far as science goes I am a big fan and there are many Christian scientist or scientist that believe there was and is a creator of this universe we live in and not on the fence as you say. One of the most famous.
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

I don't know about you all but I think Einstein was a pretty bright guy. If he says the universe had to have a creator then I imagine he gave it some serious thought before making that statement. I doubt any of us are quite as bright as Einstein or have given it as much consideration weighing the " evidence" of a creator.

I will now bow out of this conversation and thread as there can be no winner or losers and likely no changing of minds only argument and possibly hurt feelings.
They say when going to a party never bring up politics or religion and for good reason. I vote this thread be closed. If it is not. Please play nice and be respectful of others beliefs what ever they may be. On one last note did you all know that the Catholic church has stated the belief in UFO's and intelligent life on other planets is a valid belief and not sacrilegious. They are in fact studying this subject. I often wonder if and when we finally meet them will they have a belief in a divine creator. Time will tell.

 

My curiosity got the best of me. I had to read some the bullshit being spread regardless of what side of the fence you are on. So here's some more bullshit for some of you. I too grew up going to church when my parents would decide to take me. Like most people, they worshiped when they felt like it. So, devoted, no. They weren't. Later in life I attended on my own as a teenager. I liked the coming together and peace of the youth groups. That I didn't have much of coming from a broken home life. In my early 20's growing up at the end of the Vietnam war, there was peace, love and dope everywhere. I wasn't into the dope scene, as I lost a few friends to what I always thought was a cop out for not facing failure. Went to work, worked hard, played hard, with motorcycles, cars and formed my own lifestyle, with just enough Christian belief not to kick someone's *** when they needed it, or shoot their *** when they truly needed it. Yes, anger in life was always there. The only time it has ever left me is when I would take the time to go to church. You learn to live a life of peace, turn the other cheek kind of teaching. Not to judge people. When I am with out the church, well, I will then make the decisions on how to react to things I dislike. I am a sinner. If you have never really studied the Bible or it's teachings, then you are just speaking what you think you know. You haven't tried to live it as I have on and off for years. You say what you want and argue your points, but it is a teaching, a feeling inside you develop. You believe without reservation. You don't question your faith for the grace you receive from the teaching and the love sooths the soul. Gives you peace. Now, I revert back to real life. Life in the world everyday without church. I would just as soon kick someone *** when they mouth off to me than set there and listen to them spew out their bullshit. They can kiss my ***. Miracles you say. You want to hear about a miracle. You want God to prove He exists. Like I said, if you went to church you sure as hell didn't listen or learn. Like it or not. My miracle came when my 11 yr old son was ran over by a tandem car trailer full of people. Both tires cut thru his mid section, crushing his pelvis, kidneys, bladder. As a cop, I had my radio at my side and responded within a few minutes to the scene. An accident had just happened at the head of the parade, ambulance and EMT's had just left with that patient when my son was ran over at the rear of the parade. No ambulance, no EMT's, just me and other responding officers. I immediately called for lifeline (helicopter)all the while accessing my son's injuries, and trying to keep him from going into shock. All my training had kicked in and I knew I had to treat it like I would if it had been anyone else. Lifeline was in the air, and arrived 20 minutes later, the longest 20 minutes of my life and his. He stayed with me, and then the 20 minute flight back. I made that drive in 20 minutes as well. Officers could not believe it although dispatch and officers were trying to clear my way, I beat them to every intersection. I won't go into medical details, but the trauma team that day stated to me and his mother, they can't explain why he made it with the internal bleeding and the injuries he sustained other than a miracle. The blood transfusions and the amount of work, surgeries for a small 11 yr old child which lasted 8 yrs with not much hope...you pray. You will do whatever you have to do to have your child back. All of you can believe or not believe, but when my son, a twin btw,is around, I am reminded how I should be living my life. My son's strength in 3 more years of surgeries and his positive attitude was just amazing. I am a sinner because I don't always live by the Christian teachings afforded me and by the miracle given to me...but, when people who deal with life or death in a trauma unit, the best in the Midwest, tell this old guy his son was a miracle and that God must have a plan for him...I believe. Even at this old age...the sinner I am. It's between me and my Creator. I wouldn't want you to get between us. My anger is still with me, and only in the company of my faith am I at peace. Without faith, and grace, there is no peace. At least not for me. You all carry on, but this discussion you are all having gives me a sense of who you all are. How you would treat each other. Who you could trust. Could give me the wrong impression of you. That is why I never liked the political threads. I would rather learn one on one who you are so I don't form the wrong opinion. But, then who cares either way. Back to cars...cars we can agree on more so than politics or religion.

 

I KNEW there was more to you, Doc, than meets the eye. My miracle is way more personal than yours, it won't convince ANYONE, and I don't feel led to speak of it anyway, so I wont.


I REALLY wish I'd written a post like that.

 

Thanks for sharing Doc. I resisted getting into this thread for the very reason of where it's gone. Had no doubts about the turn it would take. As you said, it is a personal relationship that only you alone can fully understand. I feel like my life could have very easily gone down a "Hell's Angels" type path. I think a few will know what I mean with that, and if you don't then don't even give it a second thought.

 

I'm not a wordy person, nor do I relish confrontation, but since this is an open forum I will chime in what I believe. I believe in God and I believe the Bible is his message to mankind. The things that I understand about God and the Bible are to me the only logical explanation for the what and why about the world we live in. Also from my understanding of the Bible, I believe the best days for man and his earthly home are ahead...

 

You resisted posting here? This is your seventh post in it.
What does your good book say about temptation?

 

Just call it coincidence .. and yeah it's warns of people like you..

 

a refresher for those that forget the meaning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

 

I hope you sat down and read that too

 

I am comfortable in knowing how I live my life, how I conduct myself both in my professional life and personal life and have no problem reading this as a refresher.
Many people do not even understand the meaning.

 

Good post Doc. eloquent enough to be understood, common enough to be real, and yes, to the point.
thanks.

 

Ironically funny.. there was a time I felt the need to challenge and attempt to torment those of faith. I finally became a better person thank God..

When you see me walk on water then feel free to point a finger.. try not to notice the three pointing back at you though.

 

It says we should reason with temptation in our hearts and minds, and then it gives us the power of choice. Kinda nice actually. After all, not all by which we are tempted, is bad or evil.


It a good book, an interesting yarn as it were. Somewhat mythical yes, but an evolution of man's struggle with morality, having been given this great responsibility of choice, entwined in history.


If one wishes to refer to it, perhaps they should read it once in a while.

 

I'm sure a 1% biker feels the same way.. and PLEASE feel free to tell one how wrong he is..

Oh... just a thought.. spray paint an X where your standing when you do... that way we will know which mud hole is you..

Hey.. guess that kinda helps define someone of faith and someone without too.. You still get to keep your teeth and standing after your BS..

The Lord works in mysterious ways.. maybe this is your path to enlightenment ..

 

My post seems to have "struck a chord" with you....seems you have taken it personally for some reason.
Don't question my faith.....I am not questioning yours. I couldn't careless what you do or don't believe in. To each his own.


Whats wrong "81" turn you down.

 

I really have resisted posting (look it up), but the most interesting thing I have noticed in this discussion is, people who do not believe the Bible, often quote it, and most often wrong. As an example the use of the word "Temptation", do you know what that means as used in the Bible? ("the temptation of Christ", "Lead us not into temptation").
I find no conflict between science and religion. I do have a problem with people who say they would believe if they had any evidence. Most of the accepted evidence in science has later been debunked or at least revised. People in every field of study has tried for 2000 years to disprove Jesus, with no success. How much evidence do you need, look around you.