You ever take the tranny apart? How can you say it was fine?

Bought my son's 82 Trans Am off a leasing co with 50K on the clock. Although everything worked fine the car had obvious signs of being rode hard and put away wet. We decided to change all the gearbox fluids and found brass in the tranny oil.

Had to do the clutch anyway so, we pulled it and rebuilt the tranny.

All the synchros were worn and most of the gear teeth were rounded. Some had chunks missing. 1st to 2nd was the worst.
But it shifted just fine for the many weeks we drove it before we got into it.

I can tell you that the previous owner didn't double clutch. Just jammed his shifts. Anyone who ever drove an '82 TA with a stick will tell you there wasn't room for your left foot. Seems GM didn't consider manual trannys' when they first designed the car. the dash was too low and caught on your shoe.

Heel toe was almost impossible as well. Especialy for a 6'2' guy with size 13 shoes.

roadster with a stick

 

I did take the tranny apart in the hot rod. I tore it down for a full inspection before I sold it. The "hemi" 4 speeds draw good money if they're in top shape.

I pulled my truck's tranny for a clutch a couple months before trading it. I had the side cover off the transmission for an inspection due to the miles. It wasn't torn down. There was a little wear but nothing significant considering the mileage and the abuse it had been through.

That Trans Am would have had the T5 transmission. They were garbage from the factory. Life expectancy was OK in a 4 cylinder and some 6 cylinder vehicles but any moderate V8 would grenade them. I worked with FAR too many of those things.

It's amazing how badly someone can tear up a low mileage car of any make.

 

"T5 transmission. They were garbage from the factory."

A rather equivocal rationalization. Of course you truck tranny was fine. They are built tougher.

I drive my cars hard. The MB tranny in my Crossie was built well but I have added HP and torque. I don't need to abuse it by Jamming the gears together. Especially since there is a common, simple way to avoid it. Logic suggests that assisting the synchros will reduce wear. Experience suggests that assisting the synchros will assist the shifting manoveor.

One does not have to double clutch, that is the point and purpose of sychros.

But to suggest it is a wasted movement is an unsupportable boast.

There is no fantasy in understanding and taking care of your equipment.


roadster with s tick

 

Double de-clutching is not required in modern gearboxes, thats what syncro were designed and developed for. You putting undue wear and stress on the clutch by double de-clutching so the wear you believe you are saving on the gearbox, you are putting on the clutch instead.

Try blipping the throttle on the down shift, only requires the clutch depressing the once and you match the revs with the blip on the throttle.

Heel & toe is not as hard as you think, just needs a little practice although has little benefit on the road, but does have its use on the race circuit.

 

Double clutching is the same as ram air ..........no benefit to be gained by using it.

 

You are quite right Bazzer. Simply doing that technique is sufficient.
I do it by by a light stroke of the clutch pedal.
It is still double clutching.

Since you have the clutch engaged anyway you are not putting undue wear on the throwout bearing or really on the plates. Besides,that is what clutches are for. Or to be blunt, same logic as the that is what sychros are for. Clutches are easier to replace.

Burn one or burn the other.

Drove my '75 Starfire for 200k miles. Shifted thousand of times "WITHOUT THE CLUTCH" by synching the motor to the speeds. But that was normal leisure driving. When I drive aggresively, I double clutch the down shifts. Interestingly, the techniques are similar.

If Heel-toe has purpose on the race circuit, why not use it on the road?

Me, I like to shift fast and smooth and will continue the technique ya'll think is a waste of time. You are welcome to watch my rear bumper grow smaller in your windscreen, as I do it, anytime.


roadster with a stick

BTW feets, my '95 Dodge truck cumins has 240K, mostly pulling a heavy equipment trailer. Changed the clutch, found no problems with the tranny and did the brakes, for the first time, at 220K. Damm things were built well weren't they.

 

The T5 transmission is garbage. Aftermarket shifters did help for those who were aggressive. You could adjust the stops to prevent over travel when going to 3rd gear. We had tranny swaps down to an art in a friend's Mustang. It took less than 30 minutes using hand tools and a pair of jack stands. He was abusive beyond a doubt but never broke the Tremec after we got tired of the T5s. The clincher was spitting 3rd gear out of the case in nowhere Kentucky during the dark of night. Nothing like a catastrophic failure 1000+ miles from home. No doubt his abuse was to blame. The kicker is that we were behaving ourselves at the time of departure.

The transmission in my 1980 D100 (not my '92 D250 Cummins automatic) was an 833 like the one in my hot rod. It was a newer overdrive version where they swapped 3rd to an overdrive ratio and flipped the shift lever upside down. It was hard on the tranny to have the power in overdrive running on the side shaft but if you didn't beat on that gear. I had one in the hot rod for a little while but it didn't hold up. The side shaft beat the aluminum case badly.

I've never been into the Mercedes 6 speed. They were only available here in the C-class coupe and SLK. Even in those models they're pretty rare. I've never driven one.

Despite beating on my hot rod and working the truck hard, I do take care of the equipment. I built the car from the ground up. I even fabricated parts in my home machine shop. If I break it, I've got to rebuild it.

I wasn't trying to get anybody upset. You happen to know what double clutching means. Unfortunately, you're in the minority. Many people out there haven't a clue.

 

I usually am in the minority. Used to it.

When they make jokes about aged old rum runners from the times of out foxing revenu'ors, in my case they ain't far off. I cut my teeth on making Fords from the thirties go fast and cars from the fifties, (same technologies) go faster. Heavy cars with underpowered, unreliable, engines.

I do have some 55 years of driving to draw on. Not that smart just learned a lot the hard way. Sorry, but I get defensive. What I know, I know. No BS about it.

Transmissions, not so much. You on the other hand seem to know them quite intimately. I will yield easily to your expertise in that area even though you are a relative youngster.

In the end we all drive how we want to and learn to do better only if we aren't too stubborn and arrogant.

Or too old.


franc

roadster with a tick

 

If that gal is one of your stickers....that would be a performance booster for sure.

 

I wish. I bet a lot of guys would like to sticker.

 

To use heel & toe effectively you need to be hard on the brakes. Therefore to do this on the public highway would be considered aggresive driving and a risk to my driving license. I already have 5 points, 12 is the max.

Come to the Nurburgring with me one day and I'll have great pleasure reeling you in and then watching you disappear in my mirrors.

I'll then buy you a beer to celebrate.

 

Don't know how wussie you have to drive on the Kings Roads there, but here in the savage backward colonies we still get to enjoy our cars.

Heel-toe shifting is normal for the two Crossies that drive to work at my plant. One of them gets to do it or thirty minutes each way everyday.

Tht said, Your logic is ridiculous but your challenge is accepted.

I will, hopefully, be at the Dragon on the 18th of April to demonstrate the skill. You can come or appoint a representative surrogate from here in the colonies.
I'll even give you the edge. Several autostick push and go SRTs will be on the public highway 129 we call "the Dragon". See if they will step up for your ego. And now you risk no points.


Just trying to make it even.


roadster with a stick

 

How is my logic ridiculous? I'm sure you fully understand Heel & toe and that it is used to match the engine revs with the road speed of the wheels whilst downshifting and braking at the same time. Therefore you must be braking heavily for it to be of any use. Have you tried heel & toe with only light moderate braking? You are highly likely to unsettle the balance of the car, and smoothness is the key to making progress.

On the track I'll heel & toe when hard on the brakes, which is particularly effective on rear wheel driven cars to prevent the rears locking.

Regards my ego, weren't you the one that suggested your bumper would grow smaller in my windscreen?

 

I would suggest if you are braking "heavily" you aren't doing it right. The purpose of downshifting and engine braking is so you don't have to brake hard which loses steering control and, as you suggested, body control.

You're right, I don't understand Heel-toe. Perhaps with some more experince and age..................

As to my ego, it was an unbalanced suggestion but I thought since my right foot was mangled last Monday it was a fair matchup.


roadster with a stick

 

Exactly. Hence why heel & toe has little use on the road. On the race circuit you are braking hard for quick lap times. The most efficient braking is just before the point of the ABS actuation (cadence braking). Then there's left foot braking to balance the chassis on the brakes and throttle, great for controlling understeer/oversteer whilst being on the limit of adhesion.

Light braking on the road and blipping the throttle to match the revs and use engine braking as you suggest is smoother. Heel & toe has its purpose and place and with my driving ability, serves little purpose on the road.

I never suggested you don't understand heel & toe, quite the opposite. I said I'm sure you fully understand heel & toe, therefore not intending to insult your intelligence.

I'd love to join you all for the Dragon and if my numbers come up on the lottery then I'll gladly fly over, buy a 6 Speed Manual and tag along. As I'll be your guest, you can buy the beer.

 

Left foot braking does not apply to manual shifters. Brakes are not for 6 spd driving, they are for stopping. We clearly have different driving styles. That's OK.

Win or lose my pleasure to buy the beer. It'll be domestic from an ancient disident's recipe. Sam Adams. You may have heard of him.
If you wish, I'll serve it Brit style, warm. I'll pull it out of the cooler, set it on the hood, and wait 'til you catch up.

roadster with a stick

 

If you drive trackdays on circuits with corners, you'll see where the benefit of left foot braking comes into play. You can stay on the gas whilst cornering giving you a greater exit speed whilst maintaining a fine balance. Here in the UK, Auto's are very rare amongst driving enthusiasts and left foot braking is the norm for circuit driving.

I don't drink my beer warm, however, I'll smoke my cigarette whilst I wait for you to arrive and remove the beer from the cooler.

 

Ya do the same thing cornering while double clutchin the downshifts. If you want to burn off you speed energy in the rotors, go ahead. I put mine into the flywheel and related machinery to re-use coming out of the corners.

We can play this ego game all day if you want. Styles are differt'

Generaly thru the twisties, I'm running in the clear air. If the guys behind me are left foot braking their stick shift's, I wouldn't know about it.

What's the advantage? Perhaps, I should slow down and see?

Enjoy the cigarette while I finish my victory lap.


roadster with a stick

 

I'll call it a day now and just accept people have different driving styles. Enjoy the Nascar season this year whilst I enjoy the World Touring Cars.

 

Nascar? Now you are just being mean.
If only we had racing like they enjoy in Europe.


roadster with a stick