I have done some more work and analysis.
I disconnected the latch retainer switch from the Power Top Control Module and the DRB III emulator was still showing that the trunk was open. Based on the service manual and wonderful discussions on this forum, Pin 16 on the PTCM is still grounded. Since the latch retainer switch is removed from the circuit, that leads me to believe that the wiring going to Pin 16 on the PTCM is grounded by a short to ground in the wiring between the latch retainer switch and the PTCM connector.

I have separated the wiring loom (PTCM Pin 16) into two sections.

The first section of the loom runs from the latch retainer switch connection in the trunk lid to a connector on the passenger side rear quarter panel. I tested the grounding on the Pin 16 wire and it shows that it is not grounded in this loop. The second section of the loom runs from the passenger side rear quarter panel to the connector on the PTCM. That loom follows a circuitous route from the passenger side rear quarter panel through the back passenger wall. I am assuming it routes from the passenger side to the driver side inside the cabin wall under the carpet back wall. This loom then reappears (from the trunk view) to the driver,s side rear quarter panel where it then connects to the PTCM.

• I am either going to cut and by bypass that part of the Pin 16 wiring loom by cutting at the pin16 connection at the PTCM and putting a jumper wire to the connector on the passenger side rear quarter panel that connects the latch retainer switch. Once I find out that Trunk Open Signal is fixed, I will need to make the jumper permanent or do the circuitous loom inspection and repair or......
• Tear off the back panel carpet and speaker panels (again) to see if there is some ground shorting of the green white pin 16 wire along its circuitous route. I had replaced the back woofers and installed tweeters on the back panel after I bought the car and there may be a slim chance that the pin 6 wire got pinched along the route and got grounded. I just want to verify the wiring loom pathway before I am looking for the grounding short on that loom.

So......

1. Am I correct in my belief that it is a ground issue in the loom?
2. Am I guessing correctly on the wire loom routing?
3. Which of the two options (or another) would you pick? I am getting wary of parts being scattered about during the debugging and getting everything back together (again)
4. Any recommendation on a process for finding the grounding short?

Thanks in advance!

 

STOP.

The latch retainer switch is in the windshield frame, when you turn the "D" handle, the switch releases and that ground goes away. THis is the wire at pin 16 of C1 of the PTCM.
The trunk's liftgate lock switch is connected to Pin 13 of C1 on the CLP/SSM, the condition of this switch is passed to the PTCM via the CAN bus that connects the BCM, PTCM and CLP/SSM.

Read my content in this thread before you waste any more time chasing your tail! Make sure you understand the entire system.
https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...p-sensors.html

 

Sorry I missed how far you went down the rabbit hole, apparently, more than once.

The above is the indicator for the electric trunk lock, not the "latch" on the "trunk lid".
Again, PLEASE go read the first several posts in my thread I just mentioned, learn how the system works, and be damn careful who you take advice from - .0001% of the USA's population can do electronic troubleshooting - that's why I am still working at 66 (and making more money than I ever expected to).

I should teach a class in this - but everyone expects my time to be free and I still work all week, too busy to spend my weekends giving my time away.


ONE MORE THING:
Stop screwing with the DRBIII, and for hell's sake, stop following those inane service manual procedures.

SIT and read my thread, have the service manual in front of you, SLOWY learn how it all works. DO NOT touch the car until you have spent at least two hours reading and learning. I've earned a living troubleshooting way more complex electronic systems than our damn tops for 43 years and I can tell you this: YOU CAN NOT FIX THIS unless you understand the system first. Everyone means well, I am sure, but troubleshooting our tops is not for beginners - you become a "non-beginner" by reading all you can first so that you understand the system and the terms used.

I will try to check back daily, but I work long hours these days.

 

I understand what you are saying and believe me I have read your posts tens of times and then again over again. I am getting to be an expert at the manual syncing of the convertible top process.
The misundersanding problem is that Chrysler reused the term "Latch Retainer Switch" for two different objects. One object is the what you described is in the windshield frame. The other object is what you described in your post below

At the time you indicated that you had not found the sensor in the service manuals. It is in the 2005 SRT manuals and they describe it as a "Latch Retainer Switch", the same description as the sensor on the windshield frame. The description and drawings are in the 2005 Crossfire SRT Service Manual on Page W-66-3. The switch is buried in the trunk latch mechanism and is attached to 3 pin connector that only has two wires connected. It is loomed with the license plate light connector which is a 2 pin (two wire) connector. At the time I was first chasing it, I got the connectors mixed up since they were on the same loom and the **%& latch switch is buried in the trunk latch. This sensor wire ties into pin16 of the PTCM (Latch Retainer Switch Sense) and is an open circuit when the trunk lid is closed tight. I now know this is the standard protocol for NO/NC switches in the Chrysler diagrams. So the normally open (NO) switch shown in the diagram means the trunk lid fully closed (not grounded).
As you indicated with your Wayne Mullins story, he just needed to push the trunk lid down harder (or adjust the stops) to make this switch to go open. The DRBIII emulator indicated that the latch retainer switch was grounded (circuit closed) all the time whether the trunk lid was closed or open. This switch is in series with the other sensors that won't allow the top to operate unless they "clear."
My car has 21,000 miles and has been garaged throughout its life by the previous owner, hence I did not think there was a wiring integrity problem initially. Another poster had mentioned that the sensor in the latch on his car (and some doner cars) had taken a "set' because of the lid being closed a lot of time, Therefore, I suspected the sensor in the latch was bad due to failure of it working by pushing hard or adjusting the trunk lid stop adjusters.
I got led astray by the previous owner's story that there was a broken wire somewhere (I did not see any wire fixes in the trunk area). It turns out that the sensor wire would be grounding out for this particular failure and not be a an actual break.
I picked up a used latch with the sensor in it (since there are no new ones). This replacement latch had a spring that was broken in it and would not latch (Grrr). The latch retainer switch is riveted in the latch so I just got another latch as a backup and I started disconnecting the PTCM wiring loom connectors. I al;so now knew from searching that grounded sensor wire (pin 16) would give the same DRBIII signal as an inactive latch retainer switch on the trunk lid.
So I dug into the wiring. The loom (pin 16) from the trunk latch connector to the PTCM travels from the trunk lid to the passenger side quarter panel connector that was isolated is not grounded. The continuation of that loom that goes into the passenger compartment to the PTCM on the driver side quarter panel appears to be grounded on the pin 16 line. The DRBIII would show that the trunk is not closed all the way if this wire (Pin 16) was grounded.
I was now trying to get validation of how the circuit works (grounding means open trunk) and if somebody knew the routing of the main loom in the passenger compartment. I have a lot of things tore apart in the trunk and was not anxious to tear back into the back passenger wall after changing the speakers out.

If I was going to blame myself, perhaps I might have pinched (grounded) the pin 16 wire in the loom when I reinstalled the replaced back subwoofers.
Like I said, I wanted some emotional and technical support before I cut the pin 16 wire in the loom (to verify the grounding) or tore into the passenger compartment again to find the pinched (grounded) wire. I still have wounds from putting in the back speakers and hooking up the modified stock amp (4 channel), so I was just asking for advice before I dove in.

Terry

 

NO. THAT is the switch in the windshield frame that the hook (operated by the "D" ring) presses on when the top is fully up and latched. The switch is closed (so the pin is grounded) when the the top is up and latched. When the switch is opened (because you turned the "D" ring), the windows will go down.

The switch you are thinking of is the "Liftgate lock switch" shown on page 8W-61-3/8W-61-2 and referenced on 8W-39-2.

I know it is confusing, but remember this:
If the trunk indicator went to the PTCM, then the alarm system would not alarm if you opened the trunk on a coupe, as coupes have no PTCM so that wire would have nowhere to go.

You see, MOST lock/latch/door position sensors go to the CLP/SSM, as that is the "security system brain". The only sensors that go to the PTCM are TOP SPECIFIC sensors, which are the switch in the windshield frame (8W-66-3), divider switch (8W-66-4) and top open switch (8W-66-4). Now, the real oddball is: The Tonneau Cover switch, which goes to both the CLP/SSM and PTCM (8W-66-4).

Finally, you said this:
The switch is buried in the trunk latch mechanism and is attached to 3 pin connector that only has two wires connected.

Once again, look on page 8W-61-3, three pin connector, only two wires!

I KNOW it is VERY confusing, I have a real "love/hate" relationship with the service manual diagrams.

 

For your convenience....

These are two excerpts from Volume 3 of the 2008 Crossfire Service Manual that you posted on the forum, pointing out that the documentation was different for 2008 convertible top. The "trunk latch retainer switch is still on the 2008 models and the DRBIII process is the same as the 2005 NA and SRT manual.

• The first snapshot describes the DRB III status for the trunk lid.
• The second snapshot shows the location of the trunk latch and the "latch retainer switch"

In the available 2008 volume manual it does not cover what was in the 2005 Service manual.

The next three excerpts are from the 2005 NA and SRT Service Manual I downloaded from the forum. It is just one manual Download - MEGA

• The third snapshot is the removal of the trunk latch. Embedded in the trunk latch is the "latch retainer switch"
• The fourth snapshot is the wiring diagram of the "latch retainer switch" and it's effect on unknown position of the convertible roof
• The fifth snapshot is the same switch showing the grounding of the switch

Then I saw a posting on the forum about the "latch retainer switch" embedded in the trunk latch

• The sixth snapshot is the forum advice about the stuck closed "latch retainer switch"

I disconnected the "latch retainer switch" connector that is connected via the 20 DG/WI wire and the DRBIII still showed the trunk lid was open (Pin 16 grounded). This eliminated the switch itself as the problem. I was still seeing a grounded signal without the switch in the circuit indicating that the 20 DG/WI (pin 16) was grounded somewhere in the loom. I then also disconnected the "Mid" connector between the PTCM and the "latch retainer switch". It appears that the longer loom section is grounded based on the voltmeter readings rather than the trunk lid loom section which was not grounded.

That is when I asked the three questions about diagnosing correctly and routing of the looms in the passenger compartment.

2008 manual

2008 manual

2005 manual

2005 manual

2005 manual

forum posting

 

After verifying many, many times the wiring diagrams, forum posts and the physical wiring, I concluded that the pin 16 signal malfunction (latch retainer switch) for trunk closed was either the wiring or the PTCM itself. I clipped the Pin 16 wire near the PTCM module so there is now an open circuit on the latch retainer switch(Trunk lid should have indicated closed on the DRB III emulator after I clipped it and removed the "ground"). The clipping of this wire should have eliminated the wiring loom as the source of the grounding at Pin 16 of the PTCM. It still did not indicate trunk lid closed in the DRBIII emulator after this change, indicating to me that some sort of grounding or malfunction was occurring in the PTCM itself.

Am I making the right conclusion?

So I guess the next step is to obtain a working PTCM. Obviously, Ebay is a possible source, but there is a chance I can get a malfunctioning PTCM. So I guess I have to take a chance.....

 

NO. You are not right, not at all. You are CLOSE, but you are still wasting your time.

DO EXACTLY THIS:
1) Grab a toggle switch, a simple on/off switch, and some wire.
2) Wire it up and connect one wire to ground in the trunk, make sure it is a clean ground and dont clip onto a painted surface.
3) DO NOT connect the other wire to pin 16 yet.
4) Start engine, put both driver and passenger window up.
5)Use your DRB thingy, and read the sensor indication.
5A) Connect the wire on the switch that you left free, to pin 16 of PTCM.
5B) Did the windows go down.
5C) Did the DRB tell you that it saw the sensor change state?
6) Flip the switch.
6A) DId the windows go down?
6B) Did the DRB tell you that it saw the sensor change state?
TAKE NOTES as to items 5a,5b,5c and 6a, 6b of what happened or didn't happen - this is what tells us what the PTCM is thinking.

THIS will tell you what is going on. The DRB MUST show a change of state OR the windows MUST go down.
IF NEITHER HAPPENS, the PTCM is bad. If EITHER HAPPENS, the PTCM is apparently OK and we have more detective work to do.

MY POINT: No test is a real test unless you can witness a change of state with your DRB - that is basic electronic troubleshooting. You MUST be able to WITNESS the DRB report a change of state due to the status of pin 16.

ANY change of state (windows go down or DRB shows a change of state) is what we want.

 

Thanks, I will try it!

 

One step forward and two steps back. I jumped the gun before Pizzaguy got back and put an order for a PTCM on Ebay. I installed the used PTCM and cleared the codes. I ended up with the same behavior on the DRBIII emulator (trunk lid not closed) whether Pin 16 was grounded or not grounded per Pizzaguy procedure. So it appears the PTCM is not the problem. One curious thing happened though. During the exchange process, the replacement PTCM registered a DCM on Body Control Module about incompatibility. I cleared the code and it seemed to be good. Then as I was trying it again it reappeared (Maybe adding and removing the plugs with the power off)...So I am not sure about the process for syncing up a replacement without a code reader/clearer. Anyway with no active or stored codes the behavior of the replacement was no different than the original.

I found something else. I had been focusing on the sensor wiring and loom based on the trunk sensor failure warning from the DRBIII, but as I was trying the sync process (again) and various resets, I noticed I was now not getting any window movement and was getting beeping with lights flashing. This is a recent behavior, indicating something else is wrong. I verified that the ebrake was "on" and I toggled the windows on the DRBIII sensor screen with success. The two trunk latch motors worked as intended (I heard them) Then I tried the 4 solenoids on the same screen and I did not hear them activate (they are supposed to be quiet). What I did not hear was the hydraulic pump. It has worked before because I felt the resistance in trying to move the roof in manual mode and had to pull Fuse No 5 to let off the pressure. (One of the steps back)

So I looked deeper in the trunk at the "pump power wire" connecting to the PTCM. I saw plastic electrical tape on the wire. To me that was a sign that somebody had been in there after the factory. I recalled that the previous owner said there was a broken wire that was repaired. I thought maybe I had found the source of the problem. I unwrapped the electrical tape and did a late-night look to see if there was a visible fix in the wires. Did not seem obvious. There was a large diameter shrink wrap boot covering up the wires going to the solenoids and motors.. That was followed by electrical tape (which I had removed) from the boot up to the PTCM "power" connector. I was assuming that the black electical tape was not factory, but I am not sure.
I may have multiple problems now and the trunk latch DRBIII signal may have led me astray.
I have two weeks left in Florida before I go north to my other (working convertible top) Crossfire in Michigan.
tightworkautorepair@gmail.com was really busy and could not get to it for a month or so, so maybe I will have to wait for Fall.


This is the original PTCM. The "power" connector wires had electrical tape (shown to the right) wrapped around the wires, but there appears to be no crimping or soldering repair.
ctor

 

They used that awful black tape as loom, Iv'e seen it get loose in high heat - I hate that they used that over the old "split loom" that did the job bettter, was easier to get around when working on wires, and left no glue residue on your hands.

PTCMs RARELY go bad. In all the tops I've fixed, not once was the PTCM at fault. I have swapped them between cars, to prove the PTCM is not the issue a few times - never reset or programmed anything and never "broke" a donor car's top by doing so.

I am disappointed you did not do my test. I work on electronic systems for a living, been doing it since 1982, why do you not want to simply do the test and find out where the issue is? I cannot help you if you refuse my help. Why am I putting all this time in for you?

 

I did your test and it did not change the state of pin 16 and the windows do not go down anymore. That is why I am now confused. For shakes I just got done doing your sync process 5 times again, but I have just a beeping machine.
Getting frustrated.
All the sensors are passing on the DRBIII sensor except for the trunk latch and nothing seems to clear it. Acts like it does not exist.

Right now I am waiting for TightAuto, but it might not be until fall based on his schedule.

Terry

 

By the way, I appreciate the information that the electrical tape was probably stock from the factory.